924Board.org

[Fast924Turbo]

You know, I've been hearing for years crap about all the reasons why we cannot or should not build a better exhaust for our 931 cars. Or numerous other innovations. People will tell ya: Oh there's just two ways. Oh there's only one way. Oh that's been tried. And it doesn't matter what topic! It can be exhaust. It can be brakes. It can be anything.

I find our 924 community generally frowns on innovation in general. In our community, we have a few 'standard tricks' like swapping brakes (yawn), swapping trannies (yawn), upsizing pistons (yawn), grinding a cam (zzzz). Our community has become boring and narrow-minded, and is verging on stupid.

Take exhaust headers. Tell someone in the 924 Turbo community your'e modifying your exhaust header. People will say:

Oh it's already an excellent header and exhaust
Oh there's no room
Oh why would you want to do that?
Oh there's no point cause the flow is ok already

Could the 931 benefit from larger pipes to ENHANCE cooling? Naw. Never! "The exhaust flows perfectly without restriction" "It's great as it is" "There's no room" "Too much money" "Not worth it" "Never seen it" Yeah right.



It's crap! Look at the kind of innovation the 944 Turbo guys can do with their creative minds! What a brilliant bunch of people over there! Pity we can't be more like them.



Why don't we do innovative shit like this?

1. Cause people don't care enough about the cars to toss some serious money at them.
2. Cause people are afraid they'll end up doing something not approved by 924 peers, and maybe take some heat for it on the board in public.

Do you think we're real 'innovators'? Do you think we're the ones in the Porsche community making the coolest stuff for our cars? Do you think we're the ones thinking up new ideas for testing? Do you think we're the ones taking the risks?

Bah crap. I know my vote. We're the most stagnant group of car owners in the entire Porsche community. And it's BECAUSE we're isolated from the rest of the Porsche world on our own little narrow thinking website. We're just slightly above the Chryslter K-car and Minivan crowd for our openmindedness and willingness to innovate and challenge the rules. In short, we're a bunch of wusses and pussies who are scared to death of doing or saying something 'wrong' about Porsche.

[Paul]

It seems to me that we have had a lot of discussions on converting 931's to EFI.

In regards to the exhaust manifold, I would love to have a 4 bolt turbo mount so that we could use a more modern turbo. How to you suggest we proceed?

[Fast924Turbo]

"It seems to me that we have had a lot of discussions on converting 931's to EFI."

YES! EFI is one area where there has been positive movement.

Re: Turbo mount. How do we proceed? We whip out coin and find someone who's not afraid of making mistakes.

[Peter]

Good topic.
First, turbo exhaust headers. Good idea. Corkey Bell says that the "log" style header on the 931 is good for a production car but crap for a race car. Problem is that the 931 exhaust manifold works with the turbo and turbo mount to mount the whole thing to the engine. 951 cars have the turbo further away allowing more room to fabricate a custom header. I gave some thought to a custom 931 header (for performance and to overcome the problem the stock unit has for cracking (4 into 1 problem of high heat)) however, this is presently beyond my abilities --BOL to others.
Second, no flame to anyone as I myself have a 931 that I am rebuilding, but the 951 is a much better car. The #1 limiting factor in my opinion is that the 931 doesn't have a knock sensor system. Boost all you want, increase compression, but there is no system to prevent damage. The 951 has a good system that is easily made better by the large after market. I don’t want to continue comparing the 931 to the 951, as it is apples to oranges.
I read the 914 and early 911 boards--a lot of innovation there. Something I have noticed about 924/931 owners is the general lack of funds, which is fine b/c the 924/931 is a lot of fun right out of the box. However, I feel that b/c the funds are scare, companies don’t improve that 924/931 base. People are also hesitant to spend money on “mods” that companies can’t even produce dyno results showing increased HP. This leaves individuals to fabricate there own parts. How many on this board have the knowledge and abilities to fabricate parts: very few if any.
Now, comparing 914 & early 911 people. 914 guys/gals either rebuild their 4 cyl engines (many VW companies), or put in a turbo ( CIS systems from many different cars) or put in a 6cyl 911 engine or V8. A lot of choices. Early 911 get later model 911 engines. Porsche has already done all the R&D there.
924s/931s are all alone. So that leaves the individual to do all the R&D, and carry all the costs. Where do we go from here? For me its driving what I have and eventually going with a different model car ( I have been eyeing the early formula fords for SCCA vintage racing).

[Lizard]

I agree most of the people here have limited funds and cant fab there own items and it cost ALOT to have items fabbed for you, and plus most people think of there cars as a daily driver not like a 944/911 that is just a toy and something to dump $10k in a weekend while trying different things
_________________
3 928s,

[Peter_in_AU]

hey Fast924Turbo perhaps you could get the ball rolling by detailing all the really innovative mods you've done to your car and how much they cost you. Oh, and how about spending $50 for a dyno session to prove that all your mods actually make a difference in the real world and not just in your mind. I presume that with your handle you've done some really wild things with your car.

Painting your block blue and putting a $1000 coated exhaust on it is not innovative, it's just trying to keep up with the rice boys.

Rather than whinging that "no one else is doing something" just do it yourself, take photos and show everyone what they can do, how much it costs and what the return really is.

I think keeping 20 year old cars running on zero budget means that most people around here are more innovative than owners of almost any other type of car out there.

Do us all a favour and put up, shut up or buy a Nissan.
_________________
1979 924 (Gone to a better place)
1974 Lotus 7 S4 "Big Valve" Twin-cam (waiting)
1982 924 (As featured on Wikipedia)

Learn to love your multimeter and may the search be with you

[wdb]

here's some innovation ,if anyone is interested .it took me awhile, but I found a company that makes an adaptor plate to mate a 924 engine to a vw bellhousing ( they should be able to reverse it ,vw VR6 engine to 924 bell housing) only trouble is the co. is in S.africa . anyone in that time zone wanna give em a call to see if and how much . the 10 second lag is real annoying .

page that list the plate .
http://www.giloeng.com/adapterparts.htm

main page
http://www.giloeng.com

[924RACR]

Oh give me just a small break, Rick.

You can afford to have your cars taken care of my a mechanic, and furthermore need to have such done because, as you've stated youself, can't afford to spend the time yourself dealing with them. No big deal, I have no problem with that.

Please do not make assumptions about the ways the rest of us take care of our own cars, or judge those methods any more than you'd like your methods judged. That would be arguing on the internet, and we all know what that'd make us...

Others in this thread have come much closer to the roots of the issue. We don't have thousands to throw at our cars. The cars are more in need of TLC and restoration than mods, for the most part. I'm spending much money simply trying to get my first turbo running properly - and I've had it for over a year! I'm also trying to race, and I bought a second turbo for the heavy mods, since the first one is too pretty. However, I have yet to even get the bugs in th first all sorted out. It's taking a long time, since I have other things drawing my time and money, and it's quite a learning process. No point trying to redesign the thing until I can at first understand it well enough to drive it regularly!!!

Simply put - why would I spend 1000-1200 on a fancy hew header, which would in turn require a new turbo and exhaust, and quite possibly lead me to needing a new engine mangement system soon too? All this for more power. I can get more power simply by installing and plumbing in the 951 IC that's sitting on my bench. But I don't have not enough power yet; I rather have reliability problems. Besides, I need that grand to buy a set of custom-valved Bilsteins for my racecar, and still need to build a motor for that!

We all have our limits; if they were higher, we'd be buying 951's that don't need restoration and spending our time modifying them.
_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[Fast924Turbo]

Ya know what prompted me to make this discussion thread? When I saw this (and this was not an unusual thing to see here):

1/4 mile questions (don't kill me)

See when the guy says "Don't kill me?" That's what prompted me to write this note. You can figure out for yourself why I thought that was an important quote to put in here. Let me put it this way: A guy on the 944 Turbo Rennlist board has a simulated the requirements for a 13 second 944 Turbo. On that board, such talk won't get you killed.

First of all, Vaughan, the 'gist' of my message was essentially similar to yours a few months back when you echoed the concern about doing innovative things to the cars. Was it with respect to coatings on pistons? I forget. Anyhow, you've focused concretely on the exhaust issue, which is fine, and I accept your critique that it's small change in the big scheme of things. And costs are an issue. Your point about our demographics is well taken. But I am trying to make a bigger point so please bear with me and give me a little lee way here, I hope it won't disappoint you too much.

Second, Peter, as moderator on this bulletin board, I should think you'd be able to come up with a more moderate response than "Do us all a favour and put up, shut up or buy a Nissan." I won't dignify your reply by responding in kind - I know you're probably a wee bit younger than me and probably not very skilled at making your case in writing. I've no personal need for furthering that kind of interaction cause it doesn't improve the quality of my life. But in one sense, I'm pleased with 'Put up or shut up' cause shows that I was correct:

Challenge the establishment thinking and angry responses will emerge

Remember, I didn't name a person or attack an individual, I challenged a group using words like 'we' and 'us'. So I included myself in that challenge. I'm just as 'conventional' and as much a 'wuss' as everyone else.

That said, the greater point of my remarks, the 'tour de force', was to invite, challenge, critique, and SPUR people on to DO more things with their cars, and to help all of us CHALLENGE OURSELVES to make better cars. Was it a stupid question? Look at the poll results and see the answer for yourself. It brought out different points of view.

Now, if you want a list of the things I've done to my car, they're hardly innovative on other car sites, but not all of them are 'conventional' things we do to 924 Turbos. They include:

1. Lightened flywheel
2. Teflon coated piston skirts
3. Higher compression pistons
4. Thermal coated piston crowns
5. Four way balancing of my rods and balancing of the rotating assembly.
6. Aftermarket 16" 4 bolts that are quite nice.
7. Chopped the hood, popped a top mount cooler, and scoop.
8. Aftermarket Scirocco fan (in transit) used by bracket racers - it works better apparently, makes less noise, and it's lighter.
9. Water sprayed intercooler currently functioning nicely thanks to offset the heat sync effect at stop lights. Looking into other spray cooling systems for more cooling.
10. Tolulene has been run in my car for the past 6 months with enhanced boost with complete success. I just don't talk about it cause, well, people get upset if I mention tolulene. And keep in mind, on the 944 Turbo boards tolulene is not a dirty word, whereas here, if you mention it, you'd better get ready to attacked.
11. Honed the intake, removed the burrs, and matched the gaskets to manifold and head.
12. Removed the burrs from the throttle body. (zzzzzz)

Do all of these result in horsepower? No. But horsepower is not the only criterion for success. Or innovation. Isn't safe boost a 'good thing'? Sure it is. Isn't a balanced engine a good thing? It should result in better fuel economy and enhanced reliability. Wasn't one of Ferdinand Porsche's priorities 'economy'? If you know the history of the marque, economy is actually a virtue in the Porsche ethos. Balancing improves economy. Wasn't one of Ferdinand Porsche's priorities 'innovation' and to make cars 'better'? If you have any inkling into the history of Porsche you'll know innovation and improvement was hard-wired into that guys skull. Isn't better airflow inside an intake a good thing if it makes for better performance? Isn't shortened spool up time a good thing?

On my car, and I haven't done any measures with outside instrumentation, but I shift from 1st to 2nd gear at 5200-5400 RPM and I experience no lag whatsoever and I don't really have a gear on the car that gives me trouble with lag. If I shift at 5000 RPM it's still very quick. Since removing the 1 bar boost spring and going back to stock with a boost controller, I can crank my boost to 11 PSI safely and run it all day pretty reliably. Since all changes were done simultaneously there is of course no way to detect which particular change led to this performance. Instead, you have to ask yourself whether they made sense. All of the changes made sense.

In the past I've done water injection, which worked nicely! Allowed my boost to be upped satisfactorily. And was copied essentially from Dodge 2.2 litre Turbo guys who've been doing it for years. And the 944 Turbo guys are starting to do it now! Interestingly, when I disconnected the water injection, and went stock for a month, and the engine bearing gave out, people here blamed water injection! And it wasn't even hooked up. See the conventional thinking?

Do I need to dyno my results for my question to be valid? Or for my point that we're a closed community in need of new ideas to be a good point? Why? That's absurd. It's like measuring your penis at Scout Camp. I did that once. All of us 12 year olds sat around in our pup tents measuring our penises. At the end of the day all it proved was that we cared about penis size, and that was a very sad commentary on the state of our brains. Get the point? So I'll follow your reasoning now: I'll dyno my car and you dyno yours. By your reasoning, whoever has the best dyno results has made the most valid point. The absurdity is this: Whether I've got a faster car than you or anyone else has zero impact on my poll question, and zero impact on the validity of the poll proposal. It's about as intelligent and relevant to this discussion as measuring penises: I don't need a ruler, metaphorically speaking, to know our need for innovation is real.

One shouldn't have to come to the board with a list of "Look at my car" photos and dyno results to be right in suggesting that we, as a group, are becoming RIGID and DOGMATIC in our approaches. One only need look at the 944 Turbo crowd to see that what they do, or the Dodge 2.2 litre crowd, or the Honda guys, and you'll see what they conceive is in many ways superior to that which we conceive in our closed community.

I do not wish to attack this community. I wish to prompt this community. Why? Cause it occurred to me recently that we're a very closed group. Being closed as we are is a good thing that is functional for us and gives us many rewards. But being closed also carries dysfunctions, like intellectual stagnation, rigidity, and conformity, group thinking, and these should be regularly challenged. We should get angry once in a while, scratch our heads, and take a good look at our own cars and our own innovation, maybe look outside ourselves for good ideas.

And by the way, here are my top Innovators on our site:

- Alex Roy (for everything he's done)
- Peter in New York for his oil cooler placement (I don't like its looks but it works and it's ok aesthetically with him so more power to him)
- ADAM for being a V8 wrenchhead and building an awesome car
- The guy who made the EFI (forget his name).
- Gohim for making tranny and brake swaps easy (even if I disagree with him on the value of the swaps)
- Numbers for simply forcing air into his air intake. I'll copy that!
- John H for replicating the GT top mount - and not cause it's a GT top mount, but because he proves that you can take most any core, and providing you have the right caps, tailor a cooler to fit your demands. Theoretically, for example, you oughtta be able to do the same thing with, for example, a Ford Excursion 7.3 litre Turbo Diesel intercooler and cut up one cooler core (probably can make 3 931 coolers from one core if you wanted) with caps to fit whatever front mount setup you like. Here? Only the 944 cooler is chic even though the ribbed surface of the Ford core is far superior to the Porsche core.

Hats off to them. They've got good ideas and the ability to shrug off conventional 'wisdom' as only a single (not the only) source of good information.

Cheers.

[Zuffen]

Theres nothing innovative about the 944 exhaust in the pic.

I think that the best money spent is in EFI conversion, improved intake, opening the head for the NA guys and then screwing with the exhaust.

Your looking at over 4K of tools needed to start fabbing a new exhaust manifold. Yes it does need ot be looked at, but I wouldn't start there. You can expect to spend at least 1K to build a custom header like the one pictured. Wanting a four bolt flange or the ability to use other brand turbos is fine but your not making any huge gain. I don't see a large variety of choices as engineering excellence. I see deciding on a output range and picking a turbo to fit that range to 95% efficiency as doing some engineering.

The 951 turbo was put were it was at to to keep it from burning up every 12k. The system isn't as effective as the 931 placement, especially for a race car. You want to use that energy instead of loosing it.

Keep in mind the 931 at GT specs with CIS is capable of the same HP as the 2.5 liter. Just imagine if the 2.0 liter was EFI and intercooled and brought up to 951 specs (which is very old tech today).

Another area of innovation would be to convert the current wiring harness to a modern loom with a better accessable fuse and relay board. I think we could do that with out huge cost.

I think we could collectively convert the NA and turbo to EFI, and use the latest gear.

I think we could work out the optimum piston for both cars.

I think we could work out a replaceable cam journal and maybe a hydrualic tappet.

I think we could work out a modern dry sump system (not much there to really engineer) and do it under a low budget.

I think we could plumb a intercooler in the nose, in a method that won't block the radiator, won't require miles of tubing, and use an effective core.

I think we could also top mount one but more over the intake sitting beside the brake booster.
_________________
Bob Dodd - 924turbo@cox.net
931 1982, 944 1982 euro, 924S 1988SE, 93 968 tip 06 Silver Cayenne S, 06 Black Cayenne S

I have Way too many cars, parts for the 931,944 and 951

[Fast924Turbo]

I'd love to see the fuse box placed like the 944 box. It makes far more sense.

The idea about the intercooler near the brake booster is a really good one too, as it would eliminate the heat sync problems we experience with the top mount above the head.

"I think we could collectively convert the NA and turbo to EFI, and use the latest gear." I'd like to do that on this project car.

"I think we could plumb a intercooler in the nose, in a method that won't block the radiator, won't require miles of tubing, and use an effective core." There's an idea for Dwak.

I agree that the exhaust up top isn't innovative because there have been tons of headers built over the years. So yeah, it's only an innovation for the 944 cause it's got such huge pipes (3" I believe). I'm torn there and I can see where you're coming from Bob. It's clearly not a 25% performance boost or anything really really significant. But you know, it really impressed me as a creative project for which the guy has put in a lot of thought and caring. And he probably realizes that it's not going to make his car pop wheelies. But he's really concerned about heat build up and spool up time. Apparently, the guy who made it is spending some cash to do it, sure, and this is a mock up. And yes, it'd be around a thousand bucks when it's done. But I think what makes this different is that he's using apparently larger diameter pipe, resulting in less heat build up, and the piping is equal in length through all four outputs. Lastly, of course, it's easy on the eyes and most of our headers are cracked.

[Zuffen]

It is pretty.

I think you really have to be careful that the tube size can carry the volume while also keeping the gas velocity up. Too large a pipe and the gas won't be hitting the turbo very fast, especially on a 944T where the distance is far. Anything after the turbo should be a big as possible. I need to get my Corky Bell book back and see what he has to say about exhaust back flow and wave pulse on a turbo engine. I wonder if the 931 suffers because of the common chamber. Corky has some good stuff but then I wonder if some of his advice is in the voodoo relam of MIT kinda of stuff and he is just taking a liberal educated guess.
_________________
Bob Dodd - 924turbo@cox.net
931 1982, 944 1982 euro, 924S 1988SE, 93 968 tip 06 Silver Cayenne S, 06 Black Cayenne S

I have Way too many cars, parts for the 931,944 and 951

[Fast924Turbo]

I'm glad we agree she's pretty even if only one of us thinks she's smart.



If you're familiar with Speed Force Racing, they built up a set of headers too for the 944 Turbo and found less spool up time with their header system. So his is kind of a variant on the theme. I'd like to hear about what you find out Bob. Either way.

[dwak]

Don't forget that master innovator, Simsport. He's breaking all the 'rules' and doing it well. Then there's the unsung herione, Adie the Throp.(any pics?)
But don't forget the 'grass-roots collective' approach. Maybe a hippie throwback concept.
Why don't we design an up to date 931, same body except nose, offer all 924.org members first shot at coorperate shares, then have an IPO and start producing. May work if we all agree to buy one. Set up like Morgan Cars INC.
I'm sure our shareholder meetings would be calm.

dwak

PS How come every time I add to a thread, it stops dead in its tracks? Something sinister here.

[jazz guy]

Hi All,

I am the owner of an '82 931 (since '88 or '89). I've just recently registered with the forum but have been one of those "lurking about" for a long time. Sorry. Anyway, I have faithfully followed the threads here and have found plenty of good information. This board has a lot going for it. I respect the board moderators and appreciate the good job they are doing and have found some really knowledgeable and innovative posters on this board. Thanks to you all. So what follows is in no way meant as flame, just food for thought.

I find this topic very interesting and although I have disagreed with Rick at times; I do, as Rick does, like to hear and discuss differing opinions. I also cast the same vote in the poll as he did. I think this topic goes to the heart of what drives this board.

There have been many of the same topics rehashed time and again, but it seems when someone comes in with questions or ideas about how to make our cars better, the response is often: "don't bother, it won't work", "can't be done", "it is a waste of money", "don't try to make the car into something it isn't, just be satisfied with what it is", "buy a mustang" or my favorite, "Porsche designed it, don't try to out engineer them, you can't." (Lol, you don't think we got an Audi engine because it was the best that the Porsche engineers could come up with, do you?) I know I am generalizing and some of those responses have been well meaning and even accurate, as we aren't talking about Honda Civics here. But at the same time good ideas tend to get trampled on or not fully explored when we don't open our minds.

I ask, why can't we improve the car? Is it bad to want to make it faster and better handling? Can there be ideas that we haven't thought of? Why did Porsche design the car in a particular manner? Why do we have to settle for some things being second rate? Where can it be better? To ask these questions and ultimately find answers will only expand our knowledge and make our cars more pleasurable to drive.

I know there are many reasons for owning a 931 and that we are all in different places geographically and in our personal lives. Arguments can be made to modify our cars or not to modify them. But I personally want to thank all the posters who are looking for new improvements and the racers in the group for sharing their ideas and experiences with the forum. They are the impetus that move us forward. I think what the poll is trying to do is to expand the scope of the forum and to allow new ideas to be interjected. I applaud that and hope to be a part of it.

Cheers, Brian