924Board.org

[TomInCO2002]

I have a 1980 924 turbo "s" that I bought almost 2 years ago. I am interested in putting a Dodge 2.2 turbo 4 cylinder into the car. Does anyone know where I would be able to but the adapters needed for the swap? Alternatively, does anyone know where I can have the adapters fabricated? At this point, The only thing I am aware that I would need is a bellhousing to adapt the engine to the torque tube. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it.

[Cbass]

Nobody makes a kit to swap engines... Renegade hybrids used to do conversions, but they stopped because it was too expensive.

[Rick MacLaren]

Now why would you do that?

A 931, though smaller displacement, is faster than one of those cars. My brother used to have one and they're not all that much muscle. He gets into the 931 and sings it's praises over the 2.2 Chrysler. Now, I don't know what the specs say about the 2.2 turbo, but the 931 is just way faster regardless of what the specs say.

You could probably pop one into the car for a few (2? 5? 6?) thousand.

Want a better suggestion? Rebuild your 931 engine and pop new 2.0 litre pistons in there (1 overbore) or go for a second overbore.

[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-09-12 23:08 ]

[924 turbo]

It's not faster than the Dodge Spirit R/T!

[Rick MacLaren]

I was referring to the most common 2.2 Turbo I which was circa 150 hp. This seemed the most likely swap given it's availability and non-intercooled status - seemed a comparable comparison.

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/22t.html

Gee Jon, does this speed comparison makes you feel it is worthwhile to do a conversion? Do you think a conversion is worthwhile for our friend? Wow! I had no idea you had such Mopar knowledge! Say, where do you think he can get an engine from one of these cars you mention, in good shape, ready for transplant? It's kind of funny, cause I've been told these cars are hard to find!

"Turbo III Quite rare, and was used only on the Spirit R/T and Daytona R/T (except in Mexico) from 1991 to 1992 (again, except in Mexico). Generating 224 hp from 2.2 liters, this engine was quite a trip to drive, but finding parts is difficult. The heads were designed by Lotus, and use far-too-strong valve springs, making timing belt replacement a frequent necessity unless you do a very good job of fitting it. The Turbo III was a DOHC engine with distributorless ignition and four valves per cylinder. If you buy one of these, try to have another car to drive in case of emergencies."

True, the 931 is also not faster than a Shelby Lancer, nor faster than the Series III - IV Dodge Turbos. But then again, these are also the least common. And besides, if you rebuild and add intercooling to our 931 cars, it'll still be cheaper than a transplant...

How much do you have to spend on making your car faster?


[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-09-13 04:26 ]

[924 turbo]

Rick, I feel the same way you do about engine transplants. They're very expensive, difficult, take untold hours to complete, and, ultimately, in most cases, are a waste of time.

You said that the 931 was faster than the 2.2 turbo Chrysler cars, and I just wanted to point out that that isn't necessarily true.

You're right though, the Turbo III is a rare engine with difficult to find parts and it's fair share of design flaws, and is essentially not a fair comparison. I only brought it up for fun! Sorry for the confusion.

[Rick MacLaren]

You know, Tom, If you're looking for 200+ horsepower, which is I think what Jon might be guessing you could achieve with a top-end Dodge engine (some of them got 'stupid-fast' horsepower figures), and you can afford a Shelby Lancer priced engine and intercooler package (mega$$$), why not just re-do your existing setup, spend $8K and make your 931 'S' a monster? It'll be a shxxload easier and you've already got an excellent platform for it. The 924 GT's were quite fast - model your project after a GT. Get a very high end programmable digital ignition like Electromotive or Haltech, 944 front mount intercooler, some work to the bottom end, drop some weight, you can have a really really fast car...and it'll be way more servicable than a home built.

Just a thought.

[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-09-13 22:44 ]

[TomInCO2002]

Actually, I was thinking of using a 1987-89 turbo II or 2.5 turbo I, installing an intercooler and upping the boost to get 300-350 horsepower. If it's going to cost $2000 or more to rebuild the 931 engine and I have virtually no options for upgrading the turbo, plus it's a pain in the ass to find parts, It makes sense to investigate swapping in a more powerful (Dodge) engine. Even disregarding the power rating, if I can swap engines for les than $4000, the cost of air filters, oil filters and miscellaneous tune up parts will pay for the swap. To be honest, the 931 engine is smoother and sounds better than any Dodge engine ever will, but people have been modifying and racing 2.2/2.5 turbo dodges since the early 1980s and there are a ton of performance parts available (plus I can buy parts from any auto parts store). If there is nobody out there making parts for conversions anymore, I will see if I can get it done locally. If not, I will probably get the 931 engine rebuilt when the time comes. I love the car enough to throw money at it, even though I know it's a poor return on investment. Thanks, Tom

[Rick MacLaren]

Yeah I can understand that. And it makes sense for the 2.2 litre Series II Dodge engine, but surely there aren't many of them around, and after you do all the possible modifications needed to wiggle one of those in there, man, I can't help but think it's gonna be a lot of coin. The Series I? I dunno - I wouldn't. I think you'd have to do a rebuild on one anyway, as the guys driving them have probably hammered the shxx out of them. I just cannot picture putting the work into an intercooler setup, (modifications probably required), and an engine swap, without a rebuild to the Dodge engine anyway. It'd be suicide. There are so many things that can be 'wrong' with an engine after it ends up at a wreckers or even from a freshly-driven car. And if you put it into the car without a rebuild then you're courting oil leaks, offset compressions between pistons, and all kinds of problems that will still require a rebuild anyways.

I've made an acquaintance of a fellow who works on turbo Porsches and is apprenticing with this anal-retentive German mechanic of mine. According to him there's just no good reason why one of our engines can't make 250 HP, even 300 HP or more. He was at my house a week ago giving me a lecture on turbocharging and passing along some books to read. Of course, the limitation on your goals is going to be price. But have you thought of this: If you rebuild your Porsche engine, add the big cooler, and work with your existing ignition, which is excellent by the way, wouldn't you be saving yourself some work and money in the long run? i.e., engine swap costs, which will be as much as a rebuild anyway? In other words, I can't see how swapping an old Dodge engine in there is going to be a good way to run away from the engine rebuild costs. I think it just won't make sense for you to avoid the engine rebuild on 'any' 4 cylinder engine and expect 300 HP reliably.

So I'd ask:

1. Can a Dodge Series I/II rods and existing bearings, never strengthened from a rebuild or shotpeening, withstand the transition from upstroke to downstroke on a highly modified turbocharged engine?

2. Can a Dodge Series I/II crank, that you haven't inspected or xrayed, or magnafluxed, take the pounding that 300 HP will give it?

3. Won't the crank on a Dodge Series I/II hitting 300 HP require the enhanced lubrication and cooling?

4. Who's going to sell you a Dodge Series I/II engine and tell you all the noises or leak problems that might exist?

5. Who's to say even a used Dodge engine isn't going to have valve problems? What I mean is, usually when guys go to upp the boost on their cars, even North American ones, with BIG turbocharging, they replace all the valve springs, at minimum (or they should).

Just a few thoughts. I can understand wanting to hopp up the car, and even I'm cutting my car apart now and have abandoned the quest to keep it pristine and resellable. But honestly, a budget of $4000 for 300 HP including an engine swap is probably unreasonable with any engine in one of these cars. I haven't seen it done and you'd have to be damned creative and ingenious and have a line on stolen custom-fit custom-machined car parts to do it.

Why not aim for 200 HP and a budget of $3000? Set the bar at a place the existing setup can easily reach? Or have a look at how that guy made the minivan with the Chrysler engine hit 12 seconds on the quarter mile? The same ideas he used can be applied to our cars with the existing setup. There's nothing 'special' or cheap about any of the old Dodge engines, or any other old engines, except when they're soupped up, which doesn't make sense if the engine is an old boner that hasn't had a rebuild. This especially applies to the turbocharged ones.

Alternate plan, and I've done much of this myself:

1. DIY engine rebuild $1000. Have the shop remove and reinstall it (if they'll do it). Contract out any work you can't do at home.

2. Order up new rod bearings. Replace valve springs at like $8 a piece. DIY the valves. Put in new seals.

3. Buy a set of digital calipres and other measuring instruments $100. Measure up the cylinders, ring end gap, check the cross hatching on cyl walls. Measure valve spring tension to spec. Replace tappets if req'd. Plasti gauge the bearings if you don't replace them just to be sure. Replace rings if gaps are large. Check head for warpage (it's probably ok). Replace guides. Measure valves and ensure they're straight and to spec.

4. Send out the crank for magnaflux and xrays. Campher it yourself.

5. If you have any $ left over shotpeen the rods.

6. Reassemble and reinstall.

7. Buy a 944 cooler $250 and install, or pay more and get a top mount.

8. Go to a new digital ignition system $1200?

You'll probably be at your mark of $3000 by now, or above it, as setting these up isn't easy and where it's not easy it's usually expensive. You can easily hit 180 HP safely with the existing fuel system, I think, maybe more if you remove your cat and run a straight pipe and are a whiz with the ignition. Maybe even more than 180 if the fuel system is tweaked I think it can handle it. But if you're careful you'll still be sure you're not going to pop an engine and have to do it all over anyway.

[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-10-11 00:08 ]

[Cbass]

Actually, those turbo 2s are bulletproof, but hey, so is the 2.0 liter!

I think a worthwhile project would be trying to swap an EFI setup from another car onto the 931, and then fabricating a new exhaust header to relocate the turbo to the front of the engine bay, where the fuel distributor is now.

This makes room for a larger watercooled turbo, like a T3... spend the extra dollars to get a good ball bearing T25 or T30, slap in a front mount intercooler(pretty easy piping, straight out of the turbo into the cooler, straight out of the cooler into the throttlebody), and you're good.