924Board.org

MikeJinCO · Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:46 am Post subject: Two Electrical Issues

I'd really like some advice on these two issues. As a prelim I have had the dash out and replaced the turn signal switch.

1. Headlights, Having bought a new headlight relay from Pelican(5 pin rather than the 4pin that was in there). I now have headlights when I hook up the battery. They are not rotated up and I have even disconnected the switch and they remain on. Hints on where to start looking?

2. Turn signals. I have replaced most of the bulbs so that the come on with the running lights. I put in a local aftermarket relay and nothing worked so I got a Wherle from Pelican and it just starts buzzing as soon as the key is turned on. Neither turn signals or flashers work.

I have cleaned all the grounds on the under dash connector and also tried running a separate ground wire from there back to the battery with no results. to compound the problem I have dash lights, but none of the gauges appear to have power.

Ready for any suggestions? Thanks
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Mike

'67 MG Midget Dp
'71 Ocelot Dsr Kawasaki 1000(under rebuild)

larchie · Joined: 19 Jun 2003 Posts: 297

MikeJinCO · Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:11 am Post subject:

I tested the headlight motor relay and it tests out good, and also operates when the switch is activated. I have checked out the switch and it appears to be fine, the parking lights come on and the headlights rotate up on the first notch.

On the switch I am not getting connection from the 56 terminal to the X terminal which sends power back to the relay. That circuit traces back thru also all the instruments lights and the ignition switch(line 82 of '77 Haynes) so I'm heading there next.

I have also tested all the relay block terminals and all seem to be going to the appropriate locations, except I am not getting any power going out the light in the switch(line 1 of '77 Haynes. I could not find any shorts there, but I obviously have one somewhere.

The headlights come on with both the the switch and the motor relay out of the circuit. The high/low beam switch does not work.

I did have the dash out so who knows what I screwed up in there. Don't worry the seat was the first thing to come out. Thanks for the help so far.
_________________
Mike

'67 MG Midget Dp
'71 Ocelot Dsr Kawasaki 1000(under rebuild)

larchie · Joined: 19 Jun 2003 Posts: 297

I'm surprised that both the retractable headlight relay and the headlight switch test good given what I read -- sorry for the red herring. Maybe I am getting confused about whether your post refers to the low/high beam relay or the retractable headlight relay. Both relays have 5 terminals so I'm not quite sure as to which one was replaced.

I'm not sure my Hanes 1976-1977 1/2 Wiring Diagram in the Hanes Porsche 924 and Turbo 1976 thru 1980 (pub. 1981) manual matches the 1977 Wiring Diagram you are referring to. Is your diagram from an earlier or later published Hanes manual with a 1977 only labelled-diagram and not a 1976-1977 1/2 label (assuming there would be a difference)?

But if I'm looking at a diagram for your car, the following might be worth checking before troubleshooting the ignition switch.

Rasta Monsta · Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 11733 Location: PacNW

I have to thank larch for taking the time to create the thorough posts above. . .posts like these are what make this board awesome!
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Toofah King Bad

WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3

!tom · Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:58 pm Post subject:

MikeJinCO · Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:57 pm Post subject:

I really do appreciate the help, but it gets worse.

First the good news:
1. I'm using the Haynes 76-77.5 version 1984.
2.I rechecked the motor relay #477-941-579B between 30 and 87 and have no short.
3. Reworked the ground on the passenger side-no change.
4. With the key in on position both high beams and low beams work with relay in.

Now the bad news:
A: With the high/low relay in and the battery connected the lights go on high beam with the switch in or out and the motor relay in or out-The original problem.
1. Put in the flasher relay(got from Pelican) - it buzzes
2. Result the passenger headlight low beam turns off, high beam works.
3. turn signals don't work.
4. The fuse box was warm under the fuse 1-4 area(headlights)
5. I pulled the pass headlight to check power, turned switch off and proceeded to break headlight

Quit for Night

On the schematics I don't see any relationship between the turn signals and headlights, Plugs are different so shouldn't be shorts there.

Tomorrow is another day
_________________
Mike

'67 MG Midget Dp
'71 Ocelot Dsr Kawasaki 1000(under rebuild)

MikeJinCO · Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:39 am Post subject:

I think I found the "duh" moment. The new relay is a euromax from Pelican. I decided to check it and found I have continuity between the terminal 30 and terminal 56b so the lights would be on all the time. I realize I can't send this one back to Pelican,but any suggestions as to where to get one?
_________________
Mike

'67 MG Midget Dp
'71 Ocelot Dsr Kawasaki 1000(under rebuild)

larchie · Joined: 19 Jun 2003 Posts: 297

Sorry for the bad luck on the headlight. I've been rethinking about my statement that the headlight relay can be assumed good. I remember some years ago when my brother had mentioned relays he bought as being "bad from the box" and that set me to thinking as folows:

On the Pelican Relay page the "Headlight Relay" listed there for your car was the Empi (aftermarket) Headlight Relay (High/Low Beam), 924 (through 1980). Pelican PN 111-941-583-M84.

As I understand this relay, it's a single pole double throw latching relay, so when the headlight switch is turned on, 12V is completed from terminal 56 on the switch through a 2.5 mm^2 wire to terminal 56 on the headlight relay and then through a resistor in the relay to terminal 30 which triggers the solenoid connection high/low beam switch in the relay depending on the S terminal connection to the position of the dimmer/headlight switch on the steering column. If the relay is latched the high beams are on (terminal 56a and indicator light), if the relay is unlatch the low beams are on (terminal 56b). Whenever the headlight switch is off the relay reverts to the unlatched position (56b), so when the headlight switch is next turned on the default position is the low beam. So the S connection is the trigger for the relay.

I am thinking terminal 30 direct from the battery supplements the power from terminal 56 to power the high beam headlights as shown in this case diagram which matches the diagram of your relay from Pelican Parts:

Did you see one of the customers comments about your relay who wrote:

MikeJinCO · Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:43 am Post subject:

Thought I should give an update. I ordered a second relay, this time from Paragon. They sent the same Euromax(China) relay, this time I checked it with a multimeter found it had the same problem. I then went on the web and found that other people have had the same problem, it appears to be manufactured wrong. On the Factory Five Racing site(cobra kit cars)they use it also and someone said that other brands of the same relay are a NAPA Echlin AR284, Hella 201.007, SWF 201.007 and DNI 0127. Obviously can't confirm this, but will contact the local NAPA tomorrow to try to get one, test it before I buy it. Some VW outfit has some made by Flosser in Germany.

I took the first one from Pelican apart and it has a coil and printed circuit board, apparently the original which was used on a lot of VW's is a mechanical latching relay

I will contact both Pelican and Paragon tomorrow and hopefully return the one to Paragon.
_________________
Mike

'67 MG Midget Dp
'71 Ocelot Dsr Kawasaki 1000(under rebuild)

larchie · Joined: 19 Jun 2003 Posts: 297

Is the relay you are replacing the 924 1977-80 Headlight Dimmer Relay PN 111 941 583?

If so, which equivalent did you finally end up with?

Thanks.

MikeJinCO · Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:21 am Post subject:

Yes, that is the part# I am replacing. Jason at Paragon is sending me a "higher quality, more expensive" relay, Wherle I think. I will keep in touch with him on this. I told him that for the 3 weeks I chased this problem more money for a better relay was insignificant. When I talked to the gal at Pelican, I might as well have been talking to the wall. She did over to take it back for a credit, but now I can't find their address.
_________________
Mike

'67 MG Midget Dp
'71 Ocelot Dsr Kawasaki 1000(under rebuild)

larchie · Joined: 19 Jun 2003 Posts: 297

After doing a quick search for this part number I see why you are going though so much work -- many sites have no clean description of this relay. Autoatlanta has an Empi Headlight Relay with the addendum to the description:

vatoisimo · Joined: 31 Aug 2008 Posts: 134 Location: Kent, Wa

MikeJinCO · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:51 pm Post subject:

I have a -583A relay coming from some VW outfit in the Northeast. Supposedly it has the 56 terminal activating the relay at least. All the later ones don't. We are gone for another week, I'll respond when I get home and try it. And yes Larchie's help has been invaluable.
_________________
Mike

'67 MG Midget Dp
'71 Ocelot Dsr Kawasaki 1000(under rebuild)