924Board.org

[Matt Norton]

A Friend and I have been considering the 928.
I know a few of you here own both 924's and 928's so I thought I would bounce some thoughts off you guys. Decent early 80's examples seam to be able to be picked up for $4,000-$6,000 while their performance isn't that much faster than say a similar priced 944 they offer more comfort and advanced handling. From what I have read gas milage is surprisingly similar to the 944/924s with 25 highway and 15 in town. The early models (84 and earlier are a bit more attractive to me as they have noninterference engines. The later GTS are incredible performance cars. Out performing many of the 911's. As they depreciate perhaps they too will become more obtainable.

It looks like the 928 offers more rear leg room than the 924. Is this true?
how does the rear head room compare?

I have read that the 928 is costly to maintain but looking threw my usual sources for parts they look to be priced about the same as 924 S / 944. I would imagine there may not be as many used parts to pull from as the 944 though. It looks like there are similar problems like the 924 such as electric. But at least you don't have the battery acid eating a hole into your dash and dumping water onto your passengers feet.


We have run into 928 owners that have had there 928's for several years and haven't had to put a dime into them

Both my friend and I are hoping to get are wives more involved in PCA stuff with us and were thinking the 928 might appeal more to them. Besides the 928 looks so nice parked next the 924.

I probably won't be getting into one for a while. By then these early 928's might be in the $2,000-3,000.

My friend is itching to get another porsche since he sold me the 924 S.
He found out the hard way that the more family friendly BMW just doesn't have the reliability of a Porsche. His BMW has been sitting for some time now with a blown torc converter that took out the whole transmission.
_________________
Red 1987 924S with plans for D Productions Kit
From American International Racing.

[dpw928]

The 928 is really a heavier car that was made for touring (i.e. a GT). The 924's and 924S' are lighter and give you more feel for the road. I have both and it's hard to define how each handles. Recommend you test drive a good version of each before deciding which beast you really want.

Concerning costs, the 928 parts can get expensive considering its limited production (less than 55K made in 17 years). Also, consider that there were few off the shelf items used in its design. IMO the engineers reinvented the wheel in many instances such as the muffler and fuel tank. There are sources for new and used parts that are far cheaper than dealer pricing but not as cheap as the 924 parts.

Maintenance of the 928 is comparable to the 924S and 944's. The early (16 valve) 928's are noninterference so timing belt maintenance is not as critical as the 924S/944's which are interference.

Some folks will condemn the 928 due to electrical issues. Actually, it is no more complicated than the 924's. There is just more of it. Specifically there are 30+ fuses and around 20 relays to maintain. Another reason electrical maintenance is critical on the 928 is that that fuse/relay board is located beneath the heater/AC motor which is subject to leak if not kept sealed.

Hope i haven't further confused the issue. Both are great cars in their own way.

Dennis
_________________
81 931 5 sp
78 928 5 sp Silver
78 928 AT Euro Black

[ideola]

Power: to me, there's no comparison. My 80 Euro was rated from the factory with 230 RWHP and (IIRC) a top speed of 167 MPH. Also, there is nothing quite as satisfying as the rumble and sheer grunt of a V8. No 4 or 6 cylinder can come close, IMO. At speed, these cars are rock-solid stable, inspires LOTS of confidence...although without upgrades, the braking can be a bit underpowered and nerve-wracking. Bringing 3200 lb. shark to a halt after a run at 120 MPH is interesting, for sure! Especially on this road

Comfort: I would compare the interior refinement of my 80 Euro to be at or better than the 87 924S I own. I've never driven or owned a 944, so I can't provide comparison there. Power steering is nice, ride comfort is EXCELLENT, cornering is good, although again, throwing a 3200 lb car into the twisties is a different exercise than a 2400 lb 924. A full size adult can fit much more easily in the rear seats of a shark than a toofah...but it's still not exactly comfy. However, for my teenagers, it's no problem at all. Leg room is reasonable IF the front seats are moved forward. Head room is also reasonable if you're not over 6'.

Reliability: My 928 has been very reliable. With the exception of a stuck thermostat (which was my fault because I didn't change it when I did the water pump), the car has never stranded me. Even though my version is non-interference, front of engine service was not something I was equipped or prepared to tackle, so I had a shop do it. Not cheap, close to $2k for everything IIRC. Remember, there's twice as much of almost everything vs. a 924S/944.

Availability of Parts: I have not encountered any issue with parts availability, although I haven't had to test it either because of the reliability. But one factor to bear in mind is that Shark owners tend to spend serious money on their cars, unlike most 924 owners, so like 944s, there is a really good aftermarket for 928 parts. Upgrades, new & used parts are all relatively easy to find if you know where to look. In my experience, prices tend to be higher than for 924/931 because of the demand (comparable to 944 parts prices), but at least parts can be found!

Electrics: Definitely an issue. I have not torn into the electrics on my 928. There's a bunch of stuff that doesn't work, but everything that was working when I bought the car in 2004 is still working today, so at least it hasn't gotten worse. And this is on a car that was brought from Cali to the car-unfriendly environment of southeast MI. One interesting note is that the climate control (at least on the early vintage cars) is vacuum operated, another feature that I need to work on but haven't fixed yet.

Female Factor: My wife LOVES to drive my 928. She REFUSES to even attempt driving my 931! Definitely a car your woman will appreciate. And, added bonus, the auto trans in these cars is supposed to be quite good (although I've never driven one). I've read that they shift incredibly fast, and with that V8 powerplant upfront, they're still loads of fun to drive. Something most women prefer (auto)

Mileage: I have not seriously tuned up my car since purchasing it. I averaged 26 MPH on the highway coming back from Cali. I've not measured around town. I suspect it's running rich, but mileage is surprisingly good given the age of the engine as well as its power/weight ratio.

Battery: You might not have to worry about it falling into the passenger compartment. But you do have to worry about dropping on your muffler The battery trays are definitely suspect, so make sure you know what you're getting into in that regard.

Upgradeability: Lots of suspension and brake upgrades are available for all models. Highly recommend brake upgrade if nothing else. As for the engine, there is a ton of development going on for the 32V, in terms of forced induction kits. Big $$$, but big fun too. There's a local guy who runs our local 928 OC chapter who has a beautiful SC setup + nitrous!!! Never been in a ride in it, but I've read and heard that it is scary-fast. As for the 16v engines, unless something has come out in the last year that I'm not aware of (haven't been tracking closely), I don't think there are any bolt-on SC kits available. However, David Lloyd (928 Owner's Club President) runs Musante Motorsports, and they build 16V and 32V race engines. He helped me prep what amounts to a 4.7L euro spec stroker, so this seems to be the best upgrade path on the earlier engines. Dave claims his version of my motor puts out 350+ BHP at 11:1 CR.

Price to Acquire: these cars are all over the map in terms of price, based on condition, upkeep, Euro vs. US spec, etc. As a point of comparison, mine is a 1980 4.5L euro spec. Body is near perfect. Paint sucks. Interior is fair, but needs new carpet (leather is not torn but shows usual 30 yrs of wear). Engine is very strong, and the car had been well maintained, according the mechanic who did my PPI. I paid $3250 in 2004. Looking back, I'd say it was a good price, but not a steal by any stretch. I've seen similar cars go for $5K. I've also seen better cars that have just sat and sat on the market.

Bottom line: Whether you spend $3K or $10K, in my opinion, the 928 is literally and figuratively TWICE the car as an equally priced 944.
_________________
erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made

[Rasta Monsta]

Heh. . .speaking of power. . .I'm looking forward to seeing Lizard's 928TT this summer. . .


_________________
Toofah King Bad

• WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3

[Khal]

[Eturbo924]

My family has owned all three. Though the 928 was a 1987 S4 and we only had it for 4 days . That said I have also driven a few of the models. Love them all but the 928 is a GT more than a "sports car"

There is a great comparison article if you can find it. Came out in 1984 and I think it was Automobile magazine. I will look it up. Compared the Ferrari 308 GTB against the new Corvette against a 1983-84 928 against a 944.

Guess who won?



Ok guesses in?



The 944 won! The reason put fourth was it was did the most right while doing the least wrong... basically.

It was by far not the quickest but handled the best of course and was in the middle or top of the pack in almost all the tests... other than all out speed.

Knowing this I have become more interested in the 1984 928 myself. For the same reasons stated above. That being the non-interference engine. Remember in 1983 the 928S was the Fasted "Production" car in theUSA. 146MPH stock form for the USA... faster in European trim.

I have friends with 928s and they say some similar things... maint especially for the belt service is quite steep. Also when ever you go to do little things you have twice as many cylinders to deal with so twice the cost for simple things like spark plugs and wires and such.

Also the automatic was a mercedes unit and was upgraded to a 4 speed in 1983 as I recall. That is the year I would target... 1983-84. I read an article that said ABS was optional in 1984... which I thought was only available 1985.5 and newer... but heck what do I know. If there is such a thing and you find a 1984 with ABS that is a rare car... snap it up.

There was a 1984 928S with 133K miles near me for $3950 just recently just for price reference.
_________________
1982 924
1992 968
2003 C4S
Parts Parts Parts and More parts.
E-mail me for parts you need!
Drive Fast!

[Matt Norton]

Well we found a local 928 to test drive for sale by a individual. It was a 1986 928S with 96K asking like
$9,800 with one small dent in the back and a little rust on the gas tank. Other than that it was a very
sweet looking car. it was a beautiful shiny dark blue with large wide low profile Wheels. I think they were
the 968 style. They were very sharp looking. Most of the electronics worked however the 8 way power
seat adjustments were only working as 3 to four way adjusters. driver's seat would recline but not come
back up and the back of the drivers seat would not lock in place. (back would flop back and forth.) I am
guessing the button contacts needed cleaned as some of them work slowly like the power windows on
924S when they have poor contact.

The car had been sitting for the winter and at first start ran ruff. Took about 10-15 min. to clear up. The
tac didn’t work and a big red “!” light was lit up in the middle dash. as well as ABS. These went away
after driving it for a little and putting some fresh gas in it. We loved the sound and the build quality.
Definitely felt the difference of the extra 1,000 LB compared to my 87’ 924S. We took it out and put it
threw the ropes. The owner told us not to be afraid to hit it a little or drive it hard or something like that.
Definitely the wrong thing to say to my friend who as a teen kid was trying to out run the cops in his
mustang and at one point got his license taken away for speeding. He has gotten smarter with age but is
still an aggressive driver.

We tested the acceleration and corning. Stopped back at our houses and had our wives take it for a test.
Before we new it in all our excitement an hour had past and we thought it best to call the owner to let him
know everything was alright and apologies for taking so long. Needles to say the owner was irate and was
about to call the state cops on us. I have not dealt with to many privet sellers. I was kind of use to the
dealers telling me to go ahead take it out for a while. Go pick up you wife from work and take her for a
ride see what she thinks. I can understand his concern and would have probably been a little upset if it
happened to me but I left my 924S at his house so it wasn’t like I wasn’t going to return for my car.
Frankly I would not have traded my car for his. Sadly my car out performed his car it it’s present form.

By the time we were heading back to return the car it was my turn to test drive it. By this time our
excitement had started to die down. In part from the upset owner and because frankly the cars
performance was a disappointment. The stat say this 4 speed automatic 1986 928S should do 0-60 in like
6.6 sec. But it felt sluggish. I get more whiplash from my 924S (Granted I have a K & N stock air filter
replacement, newly installed Jacobs Energy core spark plug wires and BOSH +4 Platinum plugs and have
the car running like a top.) My turbo 2.4 4 cylinder PT Cruiser fully loaded would strike more terror into
your heart than this shark. The steering didn’t feel right either. maybe it was just the wide tires but it was
very stiff feeling yet kind of sloppy. ( I run a little seal freshener in mine after each winter to help keep it
fresh and working well . this car definitely needed something. At low speeds it pulled to the right when
you let go of the wheel. at high speeds it went strait but still didn’t seam right. It handle the corners but
steering with the gas realty didn’t work. I would step on the gas to pull out a corner and not much would
happen. My 924S could drive circles around this car.

The interior was in nice condition and over all we liked the 928 model despite the problems this one head.
A manual transmission seamed like a must for serious fun in this car but I would still settle for a auto for
my wife.

On the way to returning the car it seamed only right to stop at the car wash and hand spray the salt off the
bottom and mud from some puddles. I drove the car slowly back and returned it to the owner. Well we
never got a “how do you like the car?’ or what do you think?” The owner went right into how
inconsiderate we were. Even complained that we washed the car. We again tried to apologies and explain
that we wanted to make sure the car was sound and worth $10,000. I wanted to make sure that it wasn’t
going to over heat and that it maintained good oil pressure. He went on to drill us. “You probably had to
put more gas in it” ( he had told us we might need to before we left.) “what kind of gas did you put in it?”
Which of course we put high test. I tried to explain that we are PCA members and quite knowledgeable .
That I do most of the work on my Porsche. He explained that we was quite attached to the car and it
became evident that he really wasn’t ready to part with the car. He was selling it because he couldn’t
afford running it and racing dirt bikes.

My friend was fed up at this point and told the guy that he had been seriously interested in his car but to
forget it. Our intent and authenticity questioned we got back in my 924S and tour off in a cloud of dust. I
later felt bad about our actions. We should have kept better track of the time, made our intentions better
know from the beginning or ask him to come along. I feel bad for the guy too. He is just not ready to let
his baby go.

There were a few other things that concerned me with the car. For one he said he had the cams rebuilt
recently and the timing belt / water pump replace by a local shop. At 96K that tells me that the belt and
pump were mostly likely neglected and he must have bent valves. (not a very good serves record in my
book but I know some times these things just happen. The engine also had a lot of oil on it. I would
expect this from a 20 + year old car (my cam seals are in need of replacing at 184,000 or so (don’t think I
only have 84,000 but could be wrong the car does run great.) But if the cams were rebuilt seals should
have been replaced. I should not see only leaking from them. The other concern was that there was a
green film in the oil filler and oil fill cap. No grime just green film. I kind of wonder if the cam belt
alignment was correct. It ran fairly smooth once warmed up but never had the power you would expected
from a near 300 horsepower v8. so I wonder if the timing was off a hair.

Well over all we really like the 928 as a car and I am still interested in getting one for my wife. Probably
in a few years after our PT cruiser is paid off or when my 924S restoration / DP conversion is finished.
Other than the steering problems and the seat malfunction my wife thought the car was nice and seamed
interested in the possibility of me buying her one. My friends wife also had a similar reaction. My 924S is
much more fun to drive than that 928 was but I could see enjoying a nice long trip and a 928. Back seats
for me at just over 6 foot wasn’t bad lean over to the middle for a short trip. Much better leg room than a
924 / 944 My kids even as teens would be able to ride comfortably.

My friend is ready to sell his 100 year anniversary Harly and move back into the safety of a reliable
Porsche. He has had a couple close calls that have struck some fear in his heart. He loves doing the PCA
events and wants to make sure he sticks around for his kids and wife . We will be going back out to take a
look at some 944’s, 924S’s and 968’s locally in the next following weeks. We will also be watching the
listings for a better example of a 928. It is definitely a head turner with a quiet comfortable ride.

Almost forgot I got to test the breaks on some back roads when we cam up a hill and found a farmers
ponies loose in the middle of the road. Breaks worked well on the 96’ .
_________________
Red 1987 924S with plans for D Productions Kit
From American International Racing.

[Matt Norton]

do you have a # for that NH 928. I have family in NH and MA.
_________________
Red 1987 924S with plans for D Productions Kit
From American International Racing.

[dpw928]

Matt,

It doesn't sound like the 86 was well maintained and not a good example of a 928. The alignment being off may indicate other problems or an off road excursion. I doubt the sluggish running was due to bent valves. More likely it was caused by low octane gas from not using fuel stailizer while stored.

If you want to test drive a good example of a 928 in NH, recommend you join the Rennlist 928 E mail list or forum. There are a lot of helpful listers in the NH area.

Dennis
_________________
81 931 5 sp
78 928 5 sp Silver
78 928 AT Euro Black

[Paul]

Matt, what you did was way across the line, had you done the same to me, I would have been a lot more upset when you got back....
_________________
White 87 924S "Ghost"
Silver 98 986 3.6l 320 HP "Frank N Stein"
White 01 986 "Christine"
Polar Silver 02 996TT. "Turbo"
Owned and repaired 924s since 1977
Porsche: It's not driving, it's therapy.

[Eturbo924]

It would have been best to let the guy know what you were doing before you left... but past in just that... in the past. Just let the next guy know and avoid that situation again

The 928S in NH is on craigslist. Though I think the listing has come down. I was not able to find it. I think he sold the car to a small dealer for some thing in the area of $3500-$3900 since he was asking $3950 and then I saw almost the same add with all the same pictures at a dealer for $5900!

Anyway some more interesting comparisions.
I drove a mint 1986 928S. Was a sparkling blue metalic with black and blue interior. It had around 45K miles on it at the time and was a 5 speed. It was sweeter than sweet and man I wanted it. But I was only 25 at the time and newly married... thus you guessed it broke!

Anyway I drove it because my wife said and I quote "lets go for it!". Like I said it was a 5 speed and man did it fly! It was like driving my 924 but with all the power I ever wanted in it. That was my exact though... I remember it to this day... 12 years later!

The only draw back was that it was on winter tires for some stupid reason. Not that it actually had ever been driven in the snow but the owner had put on a cheap set of any tire he could get in order to trade it in... it was at a Porsche dealer.

Anyway the reason I note this... 86 928S. My Father owned a 1987 928S4 for one weekend. (returned it due to many issues, yes.... returned it.) I did get to drive it multiple times at least.

One thing I can say... I liked the 928S better! Likely because of the 5 speed transmission over the automatic. The automatic kind of isolated you from the fun. Also unless you mash the throttle I believe the 928S4 starts out in 2nd gear thus does not feel as quick as it should on starts.

The issues you ask that caused a brand new 928S4 to go back.
Tires had flat spots... had been sitting for 6 months on the dealers lot.
Paint was chipped on the roof (as if a cover with metal clips had been on it bouncing up and down for months).
Interior door speakers had been taken out to deter theft... when dealer put them back in they did not put the washers on and the screw heads were smaller than the holes in the speakers... the speaker fell out in my fathers lap when he closed the door at home.
The wipers had dry rotted and skipped across the window in the rain! oops.

Plus my Father noted the same thing. He thought the car would jump up and grab him and make him want to drive it. Instead he felt kind of isolated and numb. I told him he needed the 5 speed. He had driven my 924... moved up to 1 1984 911 Carrera and then side stepped into a Mercedes 300E before getting the 928S4. The thrill from the 911 and driving excitement did not translate into the 928S4.

Anyway ... take it as it is... a excellent GT and you will not be disappointed. Want a viceral emotional responce from the car and you might be disappointed... unless you get the 5 speed. Even then it is not like driving a 968, 944, 924 and not even close to a 911. They are all different in the way they go about their business. The 928S4 and GTS are the finest GTs money can buy if you ask me... but not "sports cars"
_________________
1982 924
1992 968
2003 C4S
Parts Parts Parts and More parts.
E-mail me for parts you need!
Drive Fast!

[Matt Norton]

[dpw928]

Matt,

One quirk on the 928 is that every tire shop cannot perform the alignment properly in that the car cannot be lifted, nor should it have been lifted within 50 miles of driving, before checking the alignment. Typically a Hunter alignment machine is needed to get a true reading without lifting. Oddly enough, the Sears tire shops have these machines but many are reluctant to mess with a Porsche.

Dennis
_________________
81 931 5 sp
78 928 5 sp Silver
78 928 AT Euro Black

[Matt Norton]

Apparently the car had been lifted before the alinment. The local shop I take my stuff too has a brand new laser computer alinment system. They drive the car up the little ramp mount the reflectors and the systme tells them to add weight if needed. I haven't had much luck with Sears.

My freind's wife said no on that 928. She wasn't happy with it's performance. She would rather have a stick too. We should see how she likes driving my 924S. She didn't know how to drive stick back when my frined owned the car. Since then she has learn and loves it. We wil still be on the look out for a decent 83-84 5 speed 928 for around $4,000.
Thanks everyone for the info.
_________________
Red 1987 924S with plans for D Productions Kit
From American International Racing.

[Eturbo924]

The other thing I was thinking about that car and its wandering front end... since the car was sitting for some time it is likely that the tire pressures were not correct. One tire being way under pressure will cause the issues you saw.... to some extent.

Also if the tires are not the stock size... which I think you noted the front end can tramline quite badly since the suspension is tailored to the stock tires.

Good luck in your seach.

Oh there was is a sweeeeeetttt 1984 in Maine. Black on black 5 speed with decently low miles. It was around $5K as I recall. Alas I just went looking for it and the add seems to have expired! DOU!
_________________
1982 924
1992 968
2003 C4S
Parts Parts Parts and More parts.
E-mail me for parts you need!
Drive Fast!