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cgoldhill
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 28
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 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:43 am Post subject: I'd really like to get into racing...Help me out |
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| I'm going to soon be a 931 owner but I have been in a car head for about 2 years now. My old project car with my dad was an 89 bmw 325i auto but i wanted to get something in a stick and some tuneability, so i've turned to the porsche 924 turbo. I would really like to get into racing but i don't know how to go about doing it. I'm 17 now, is it possible? I don't want to win(although that would be nice) i just want to experience it. Is it necessary to go to driving school or can I just join up? I've been looking on the internet at pca and scca stuff and i can't really find info on how to actually join up somewhere local to me. I live in Southern Jersey and the closest track to me is probably Watkins Glen. I may sound really stupid but i really want to learn more about this. If there are any sites on the web you can steer me towards about registration and other info that would be really helpful! I'm really lookin forward to owning one of these classic cars and i hope to get into the racing area as well. Thanks you guys! |
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Lizard
Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 9364
Location: Abbotsford BC. Canada
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Most PCA chapters (if you wish to call them that) hold autocrosses, and track days, up here they have 2 track days a year, if you have never raced before you MUST attend the first date. the day consists of 1/2 in the classroom, learning the rules, then the second half is on the track, and once you get compitent then you will move up in there classes and will be allowed out on your own, also up here they dont frown on age, so that isnt an issue, although if you are 17 you will HAVE to have a parent cosign and agree,
best of luck with it.
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3 928s, |
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924RACR
Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 9069
Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: I'd really like to get into racing...Help me out |
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| cgoldhill wrote: | | I don't want to win(although that would be nice) i just want to experience it. |
That won't last long... 
Your options are many and varied. You happen to be in an excellent location for track access. Tracks in the NE:
http://www.na-motorsports.com/Tracks/RoadCourses.php#NE
However, given your limited driving experience, while getting on a road course may be a good long-term goal, you'd probably be best to start small. More seat time and more practice driving a stick, etc., at the limit. The best place to start would perhaps be some autocrossing, moving into DE or HDPE (same difference) within a year. Autocrossing will acquaint you with controlling the car at and beyond the limits at lower speeds where you're ready to handle it, slowly bumping up your thresholds to where you're ready to do the same on-track at higher speeds. Then, after a season or two of DE, you might be ready to think about wheel-to-wheel, if you're still hard-core and craving more.
Autocrossing and DE (also known as lapping days) are done by many car clubs, not just PCA; NASA is of course great, but there are also many other marque-specific clubs that may have events that work better for your schedule.
Autox'ing can be done with minimal preparation/instruction, though the more you have the better. DE will require some instruction; the best thing you can do for yourself is to get signed on at the beginning of the season with a group that does a Beginner's Day. OTOH, some groups will provide that instruction all year long. Ask.
You can find your PCA region through www.pca.org. NASA can be found:
http://www.nasanortheast.com/ - NASA NE
http://www.nasaracing.net/ - NASA VA
I think NE's more focused on autox than DE right now, due to the difficulty of getting track time. VA will be much more track-oriented.
Wheel-to-wheel will take much more money than even DE, just to be out there and safe.
Another point, since you haven't got the car yet, it sounds like, or perhaps you're still getting it going. In order to make good progress in advancing your driving skills, you need seat time - and on a fairly regular basis. If you can find time and money to do about 1 event per month in the summer, you will be doing well - among other things, you won't forget too much between events. 1 every other month would perhaps be a minimum to shoot for. But in order to do this, naturally, your car must be ready!
More to the point, your car must be restored enough to be solid and reliable, pass a tech inspection, etc. When you get to the point of blasting toward tight corners at 60mph, leaving the braking till the last minute - you'd darn well better be able to depend on the brakes working!!!
With this and budget considerations in mind, I'd suggest you reconsider your desire for a turbo. The added complexity will likely sideline your efforts to get on track, as you may well find yourself spending perhaps as much as a couple of years (and a few thou) trying to get it to that point, heck, even just trying to get something you can drive reliably on the street! It's taken me 3 years to do that with mine, and I know 924's pretty well!
A regular NA 924 will be cheaper to buy and operate, can be just as fast through the corners, and could be more reliable. It will certainly be MUCH easier to work on. Sure, I'm building a 931 racecar - but I have 5 years experience racing a 924NA, perhaps 8 years wrenching on them, and 4 years experience wrenching on 931's. I finally consider myself qualified.
From the sounds of it, you want to drive. Though you may enjoy wrenching, you'll want to find a car that will allow you to go drive, not demand wrench time. I don't think I'd put the 931 in this category, certainly not for a first-timer. When you've got a few seasons under your belt on-track doing DE, then you can consider whether a 931 or 924S, or of perhaps the 924 is fast enough for you.
Another point in car selection, since you mention possibly wheel-to-wheel - where will you race the car??? With a 924(NA) or 924S, you can run in SCCA (IT, Production, and GT) and NASA (944Cup or GTS Challenge), as well as PCA.
The 924 (2.0L NA): IT is rather a good cheap way to go racing, and while the 924 doesn't seem to be too competitive in ITA, it's due to be reclassed to ITB next year (banning major policy shift by SCCA), which will make it much more competitive - think 4-cyl Rustang, Volvo, and Wabbits and Goofs (VW GTI's). For NASA, it's quite competitive in GTS as far as we know, but participation there is very limited (not many people to race and you're continually dodging faster cars, though this may change for next year). In 944Cup, I don't know, but I suspect they're still struggling to get the cars light and fast enough to chase 944's. PCA - not too many 924's here, don't know that there's much going on, probably similar situation to GTS. My observation of PCA racing as compared to NASA and SCCA, also, is that the level of competition is much lower... well put by a colleague of mine: "They race because they have Porsches; you have a Porsche because you race."
The 924S (2.5L NA): In SCCA, it's less competitive, as it's in the next class up from the 924, in ITS, but doesn't expect to see any relief from the rules-makers. It's more competitive than the 924 is now, but it's unlikely to win races... it'll just be a mid-pack car (not that there's anything wrong with that). It's very competitive in GTS and 944Cup, I believe, and there may even be some decent competition in PCA (though I've heard that it's still lacking the competitiveness to win, due to the 911's it must compete with, major weight advantage), hence the success of the 944Cup and GTS. You also, with this car, have the disadvantage of the more expensive engine, and a narrower car than a straight-up 944, so you'll always be at a disadvantage (to the 944, which it competes against) unless you're running Talladega or Daytona and aero can come into play.
The 931: the only ones of these running and racing (in a competitive wheel-to-wheel environment, in the US) that I know of, aside from John Brown, are the GTR's, and they're not drug out much. Certainly don't see these on track on any basis. Limited options for racing a 931. SCCA doesn't allow turbos in the classes this car could run in except ITE, and you'd get run-over by Corvettes and 951's here. You could run it in GTS (as I plan to do), anywhere from against 924S's and 944's to Unlimited, or in 944Cup. Think you'd have some degree of competition there, but not the big fields like SCCA. Not sure where you'd be in PCA, or how competitive.
Don't forget, the different classes have different degrees of modification allowed... and the more you modify the car, the more expensive it gets. IT is a great level of prep; it's essentially the safety gear and a mild race suspension, beyond that you're not really allowed to touch the car, things have to remain fairly stock. This keeps the costs down a bit and the reliability/durability up. Once you get to Prod or GT-level cars, you're allowed to do a whole lot more with the motor and bodywork (and suspension), which really drives the cost up faster than the speed, and durability plummets. As they say, How fast do you want to go?
My recommendation, if you're already got the car or the purchase is going through, is to keep it for the street and get a 924 for the track. There's nothing like wrapping up a good weekend racing, then getting in virtually the same car the Monday morning and driving it to work/school... 
You might aos wish to consider attending a driving school - not a racing school, but a high-performance driving school. Skip Barber is in your area, among others; over this way, we tend to use the Mid-Ohio school. The advantage, in spite of the cost, is professional drivers teaching and giving expert feedback on all your basic driving techniques - threshold braking, cornering, oversteer, understeer, skid control, shifting/heel-and-toe, etc - finishing up by tying it all together into lapping a course (road course or autox). Going to one of these will give you a huge leap forward on the learning curve, they really are worth the money, not to mention that you get to use their cars. It's really as much as anything a safety thing, not to mention you learn all the techniques you will need on a road course. I think every teenage driver ought to be required to take these courses, no joke, and I hope to be able to send my wife to the Mid-O school before long (and she's been driving longer than I have, but without the professional instruction):
http://www.midohio.com/school/ - check out Teen Defensive Driving Program, Car Control Clinic, and High Performance Course - the first two are only $350.
http://www.skipbarber.com/ - One-day Driving School or New Driver Program, but they're much more expensive, $700-800
Hope that helps... probably a lot to digest...
_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype |
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cgoldhill
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:46 am Post subject: |
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 Wow...that was amazing. That has to be the most in-depth thought out reply i've ever seen. Thank you so much guys for the great info. I haven't bought the car yet so maybe i will get a 924n/a or s. I'm going to check out the sites you gave me right now. Thanks so much again!  |
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John Brown
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 903
Location: Leesburg VA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Only a couple of slight refinements to Vaughan's eloquent discussion.
In the interest of a short and sweet summary reply: of the cars under discussion get either a 924na or a 924S. As it happens there is a 924S I just saw yesterday 2 blocks over for $2000. A good buy on a 924S is such that 924s almost need to be free. Don't misunderstand, there is a 924 and a 931 sitting in my driveway. But, my son is driving the '83 944 for a college beater car for a good reason. On the other hand, if this is STRICTLY a hobby car and you are not in a time or financial rush the 931 has real speed potential. You will NOT get back any investment in any of these water cooled Porsche.
If you take the long view and believe in preparation, as I do, then PCA Driver's Education is the cheapest way to attain intial track training and experience. PCA DE tends to be cheapter per track hour than any of the other alternatives. I believe you can make much better use of the other types of schools (such as Mid Ohio, Skip Barber, etc) if you have some experience going in. Why spend the money on 'Grad School' before learning the basics first at the undergrad level? You are in a part of the country where you are surrounded by multiple PCA Regions that are VERY active in Driver Ed. However, you must be 18.
Autocross is MUCH less expensive and there are many venues I believe where you can do that at 17 and in pretty much any car.
Just by way of a disclaimer of sorts: I instruct for Potomac Region PCA and several of the other PCA regions around you who use Summit Point, for NASA VA, and at BSR FATTs at Summit Point. Race a 924 in 44Cup and am trying real hard to get a 931 running well enough to clean up on the 944s in 944Cup. We have had the 931 on the track but about half the time it ran poorly. When it ran well it showed real promise of being very competitive.
Finally, there is a 'Defensive Driving' school closer to you at Summit Point. They call it Accident Avoidance. $295, one day, in the school cars. Well worth it. Not a high performance school per se but driving is driving, the techniques you learn are applicable. www.bsr-inc.com
_________________
John
80 931 - #931 44Cup
99 Escalade - tows track cars
gone but not forgotten: original 924.org car - 82 |
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emoore924
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2822
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:21 am Post subject: |
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Very well said by the previous posters. Here are a few additional things to consider.
1) KNOW THE RULES
You might want to pick up a copy of the GCR (general competition rules) for whatever sanctioning body interests you -- SCCA, SVRA, POC, PCA, etc. Then you'll know what you need to do to get/stay competitive. Know them. Love them. They are your life.
2) KNOW WHAT IS COMPETITIVE
Look in the club mags to see what cars might be competitive and within your budget, then BUY ONE THAT IS ALREADY SET UP FOR RACING. I can't tell you the number of "projects" that get sold because the owner got in over their head. If you want to race, buy a car that's done and sorted and that has already had all the money spent to make it go race, or buy a "project" where you can afford to complete the build. There's nothing better than finding a car where the driver is moving up to a more competitive class and wants to sell their old ride. Buying a completed car is *always* less expensive than what you'd have to spend to build a similar car yourself. ALWAYS.
3) KNOW YOUR BUDGETARY LIMITS
...then double what you expect to spend and add 10%. If you can't afford to run the car, stop reading now. You'll make safety compromises to accommodate a limited budget. Go autocross or buy race tickets and watch. To give you some idea, I run a *shoestring* budget and I set aside about $1,000 per race weekend. That covers entry fees, hotel and consumables like fuel, tires and brake pads, tow costs, tolls, but not pre-race prep, rebuilds or breakage (which can get expensive depending on what you break or wear out, of course...).
4) KNOW WHAT IS RELIABLE
See "budgetary limits" above. Buy an initially cheap but high-strung, high-maintenance car and you can find yourself in trouble fast. Why do you think that PO was selling that F2000 so cheap
5) BUY THE BEST SAFETY EQUIPMENT YOU CAN POSSIBLY AFFORD
There's an old racer's adage -- if you have a $100 head, buy a $100 helmet. So you need to spend on safety equipment BEFORE performance. All sanctioning bodies require driver's suit, helmet, gloves, shoes, window net and belts (maybe seat back brace and HANS too). Total for semi-decent midline quality equipment: about $1,000.
6) IMPROVE THE DRIVER BEFORE IMPROVING THE CAR
YOU are the most important part of the racing equation and making YOU fast is much more important than making the car fast. I can't tell you the number of totally surprised 350hp whatevers I pass in my humble little 115hp 924 because it is being driven better. There are always some surprised puppies in the paddock when they come up and ask me "Whatcha got in that thing?" and I say, "Oh not much, just an old 115hp 924. Nothing major" It always puts a smile on my face to know that that person spent googoogobs of money on their sled and I'm still faster than they are. Ha! So once your car is safe and you are safe, spend your money on drivers schools and learn how to drive right and fast.
7) GO TO THE TRACK AND TALK TO THE DRIVERS
Nothing like rubbing elbows with some drivers at an SCCA regional or a PCA driver's school to find out what's going on. Be sure to respect their time because they are always busy between sessions, but when the track day is done, you'd be amazed what you can find out if you just sit, chat and listen with both ears. If you are a PCA member, you can always come visit a driver's school and talk to the participants if you'd like to know more.
Good luck, take your time in making your decision and you'll be very happy in the long run.
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Hey Vaughan: only 60 mph into the turn?? Hee hee, dude, the gas is the one on the right  |
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924RACR
Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 9069
Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| emoore924 wrote: | | Hey Vaughan: only 60 mph into the turn?? Hee hee, dude, the gas is the one on the right |
Huh? 
_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype |
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ryoji
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 168
Location: NNJ
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:52 am Post subject: |
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Do you want to race with 924/931? Or you want to start racing in general?
If it is not car specific, considering 17 years old, isn't it better to attend a professional racing school like Skip Barber or Bertil Roos at the LRP or Pocono? In addition, I think it is better to try out a Kart series.
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R.I.P.:a 924 ITA race car |
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jjadczak
Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 346
Location: Accokeek, MD
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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South Jersey and you closest home track is Watkins Glen? Don't you know that their building a state of the art road course in Millville, NJ? It should be completed in 2006.
My advice would be this. If your absolutely new to racing it's better to get a car that is already put together and WELL SORTED. WE did exactly what your thinking of doing and were so hard headed we built three cars from scratch. Not exactly the best way to get started in racing but definately the cheapest.
Ed, Vaughan, Ryogi and John are right, racing ain't cheap and you need to do your homework before you bit off more than you can chew.
I do think that the 924 is one of the best cars out there to run in many different types of venues. You could run PCA, vintage, SCCA, and NASA, not even the millions of Spec Miata owners out there can say that.
Currently running in SCCA ITA is no fun but next year their moving us into a more competitive class. If you want to run in GTS Challenge (NASA) we have our own class! (for the most part). If you decide to run in the NASA 944 Cup since there are so few 924's out there the series organizer works with us making changes to the rules to allow us to be more competitive, he's just an email away. You can't say that for SCCA.
If you decide to go ahead with this project, then come by this forum more often, email us privately and ASK QUESTIONS. Us racers would definately love to have another 924 racer out there and we can also help you locate the best parts for your race car, especially if you like 2 hours from us. In fact I know where there is a custom roll cage available for a 924. It has all the safety certifications approved and it was only burned once (sorry Ryogi, I could not resist).
My dad and I both race 924's and we might be able to help get you started. We live in the Philly area too if you wanted to come by one day to see our race cars and see what it's all about. Send me a PM if you want to talk.
_________________
Jeremy "I'm Faster than My Dad" Jadczak
#53 Porsche 924 (sold '06)
#35 Porsche 924 (R.I.P. '06)
#141 Porsche 944 944 Cup
FLAG Motorsports
"Fast Lucky And Good" |
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