924Board.org

[ESC944]

Ok So here is the deal...

I have been working with a friend who is in the buisness, we just finished a simple belt drive Supercharger kit for the 944 and 924 Turbo. Well he supplied the basic parts, I did the fabrication. He did some the finished welding, nice partnership, since my welding skills are still under development.

Next car up is the 924 NON-TURBO model. I just have to find a 924 that I can use for mock up and mods. I think the 924 Turbo head or a better flowing head would be a big help. But I will wory about that later. When I have a 924 work horse to play with.

The Supercharger Flows either 400 CFM or 550 CFM, depending on configuration and porting ( I race ported mine, it flows 550 CFM at 7 PSI on the '44).

Up to 12 PSI is easily possible with a single unit. It can actually produce up to 15 PSI with out issues, but at that level you are right at the max safe level. Overdriving a supercharger beyond its operational limits is a bad thing!!!

These setups dont require deletion of the AC or anything of the kind. Still working out all the bugs. I think for the 924 owner, 5 -7 psi, is about the max, on the turbo you can go with a lot more. I am still working out the fuel delivery on the 924 Turbo, trying to optimize it.

I am having a lot of fun with the 944. She hauls... hahaha. Now lets see.. If I had two... hahaha actually its possible, but a lot of irritaing work.

A 944 that could spank a 951 in power would be fun. A 924 that can spank either is even better. Of course their is always something faster.

In a month or so I figure the 944, 924S and the 924 Turbo kit will be available, if I can get my friend to produce them based on my one - off setup. Shouldnt be to hard, I did all the prototyping already, just need to have the parts mass-produced, well enought to sell anyway.

No pics available yet. Proably not till I have a more finished looking setup (paint or powdercoating, etc)

I tell you looks dont make it run hahaha.

I am not going to get into the arguement of turbo vs. Supercharger, but the delta rise on the supercharger is far lower than on a turbo, up to 7 psi don't even need a intercooler. Above that yes and depending on the vehicle, maybe water/alcohol injection. A turbo maybe you around 5 PSI, its all subject to each individual setup, configuration, blah blah blah...

Now lets see... how about a SC or TURBO in a draw thru carb configuration... even blow thru... but that requires carb prep. Draw thru is just a plug and play type of operation.

I am also working on a water to air intercooler for higher boost levels, using a air to air intercooler converted over + transcooler as a mini radiator> I can mount the transcooler behind a vented nose panel, like the 924 Turbo. There are models that have fans available to... if the vented nose panel isnt an option. Small water circulation pump... all under hood... maybe a brak style cold air vent to direct air across the mini-radiator.

Comments... interest... I am not in the biz, but I sure love building crazy stuff...

Now if someone will just find a better cross-flow head that fits the 924...

[Llamaguy]

I am thinking about a supercharger, but I need to do belts and then save for college so it won't happen unless I keep the car for about 8-9 years.

My idea was puting the SC where the A/C is, I think there would be plenty of room for pipes and such and the oil would be right there as well. I think 200hp would be enough to satisfy any cravings
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1987 924S Guards Red
1997 Suzuki Tl1000 Supersport

[Neil924]

[ESC944]

Neil,

Not really putting a lot of money into this. I sourced all the superchargers I am using, used with low mileage for my projects.

As far as turbos go... I own 3 924 turbos and 2 early 944 cars.

I would like to see a kit for under 2k yea under 2000.00 depending on whats included... .

ITs very do-able. Difference between and my bud, is he is in the biz, I am just into cars and boost. So I am not profit driven, sure I want to make a little for my time and I will have to pay him to make the pieces... but other than that... Well even I dream of a supercharger kit for under 1500.00

That Would rock!! Maybe I can convince him that the first dozen or so be introduced to the market at a discount...

My heart is in the cars, not making money hehe and I know right now if I saw a kit for the 944 or 924 for 1500 or less I would be all kinds of happy.

Again it depends on whats included.

I have a friend out in California who reprograms the chips for the DME setup, so I am testing out a few set ups, with a FMU his chip and factory injectors on the 944. The goal is to get to larger injectors and a FMU plus chip.

Oh and I came up with A MAF conversion for the NA cars. It is working great on my car. the 944 is a 84, with a late model DME so I can use a custom chip, better configuration and since I am using my MAF setup, no need for a late model AFM. Plus the difference just with the MAF is great, no more restrictive AFM. With Boost this is great.

As for converting the 81 931 well I have a ceramic turbo setup for it, but I just wanted to do something different. Its certainly not new, I have seen my share of Supercharged 924 cars.

Figured others might be interested, they could swap on the 931 Head and Intake, setup the Supercharger, etc... Of course the 931 is better suited to boost since it came that way. I am still working out the bugs with fuel delivery, especailly on a 924 NA.

One thing I like about the NA 924... doing boost with carbs... the mock up I did was with a Holley 4 barrel mounted to small plenum then to the eaton custom sheetmetal intake... very crude.

On the other hand... a blow thru design with two side draft carbs... has appeal... so does using the 4 Throttle body setup from a motorcycle... might be trick... for fun that is... 4 TB 4 Injectors... single Airbox plenum that fits over the Velocity stacks. Plumb the pipe from plenum to the turbo or supercharger in this case... be very interesting.... pain proably to tune a quad TBI setup. I have one laying on the self... nice... just a little larger than is need per cyclinder, injector per TB.... but like I said might be a pain and not very practical on a street car...

I do love to tinker... so my point is I am building these things for my car, the Supercharger setups, I will proably convince my bud to make the parts so I can hook up all my cars if nothing else. If I can get the price down low and sell enough to break even well hey thats a good thing, if I make a little that I can put back into my cars and some track time, thats even better!!!

[Latka]

ooh... I would be very interested in one of your kits if you ever decided to sell them. I love the looks and handling of my 924S, but it's about 100hp or so shy of "fun" power!

[ESC944]

Latka,

You one kama'aina or maybe kanaka maoli ? Or malihini?

So what you want one wikiwiki 924 when I pau with the kits? I let you know eh?

Pearl City boy, here... living in Florida.

How long you been in Hawaii? I will keep you posted on the superchargers.


******** ********
"`A`ole no i `ike `oe i na nani o kona wahi i hânau `ia
ai a e hele aku i kou `âina hânau."
"You do not see how beautiful your birthplace is
until you go away from home."

[Latka]

Shoots den! I like make my 924 fas, eh? Get too many ricers ova hea.

I moved out here in '91 when I was playing Jarhead for a living. That only lasted 4 years, but after a 2 year move back to my "old" home of San Diego I moved back to O'ahu. Been here "permanent" since 95. Not planning on ever leaving. The only thing that really sucks is tryin to ship things to Hawai'i. I might as well live in the Congo or something for as much as we have to pay in shipping!

Pearl City, eh? No wonda you like leave.

(edit) Just checked your profile and you don't have an e-mail address listed. Mine is there, so send me off a message when ya get a chance!

-Andy

[Joes924Racer]

Good job man um keep us posted !
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1979 porsche 924 Na
1980 porsche Turbo 931GT Replica
Have u ever driven a turbo.

[endwrench]

So what size and style charger are you using? How much overdriven are they at your boost level? I'm interested because I have a 96 CID Whipple charger I plan to install soon and wanted to compare. Thanks,

Todd

[ljd 924SE]

if you can build a reliable SC kit that does not delete AC, then count me in!

my 924S (2.5L engine) could definately handle some more power, but being a FL resident, i cannot sacrifice AC.

please keep us updated on your progress.

once all the bugs are worked out, be sure to contact me!

ljamesdickinson@yahoo.com
_________________
'88 924S Sport Edition
http://www.cardomain.com/id/ljd924se

[edh]

put me on the list

- sounds like a great reason not to buy an S2 or 951

2000USD + shipping to UK still sounds pretty good

what sort of s/c are you planning to use? (maybe I can source one over here & buy the rest of the bits from you? - although US prices for superchargers are usually much better)
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current - '90 944S2, '00 986S,
ex - '90 944 turbo '86 924S, '88 924S

[Latka]

Any update for us yet?

[ESC944]

Ok so the latest intel on this little project...

944 holding strong.... one mother of a fun car to drive with the increase in power.

According to my G-Tech, I am in the 217 Rear wheel horsepower Range running 7-8 PSI. I think my boost gauge is a little off, but something like 7-8 PSI.

Car has a header and Cold air intake, plus chip tuned for boost. I am running rich, but works for me.

Still have to tweak the fuel delivery. I want to be spot on, to maintain power and fuel economy.

Now for those of you that are interested, the Unit I am using is an Eaton M62 from a mercedes. Note the GM version is different than the Mercedes unit, same size internally, rotors, etc... but the GM units have a long ugly tail on them and makes the unit longer... The mercedes unit is nice and compact.

It comes with a Clutch pulley on it, so in theory, you could setup a part time setup, so that you could just flip a switch and engage the supercharger.

I removed the clutch pulley and installed a pulley that gives me the boost I want and matches porsche configuration. Boost is related to pulley size vs crank pulley size. Smaller the SC pulley the larger the boost levels.


A part time setp, might be something to consider. Problem is the Clutch pulley will limit max boost, do to its larger size, I suppose you could get a smaller clutch pulley that would match the Porsche belt configuration, but that can complicate things by itself.

You could also do some kind of one-off underdrive pulleys for the AC, Crank, and ALT, matched to the pulley on the SC.

My case is ported and polished, some time soon I may even coat it with a coating from Swain, to reduce friction further and heat.

Unit is installed currently above the Alternator. Using custom brakets that support an anchor it in several places. Use a single belt to drive the ALT, AC and SC. I plan to develop some kind of Belt tensioner, to help when I got to higher Boost levels. seems to work great for now (last 3000 miles). I am trying a new configuration:

Stock injectors, a 10:1 FMU (for every 1 psi, the FMU increases fuel pressure by 14 PSI) this give me more fuel delivery per pulse on the injectors. I am down to just one extra injector as a back up. It runs full duty cycle as soon as manifold pressure reaches 3 PSI. It kicks off below that. System is seems still to rich.

Note: the extra injector is their to protect the engine. The Chip and fuel map seem spot on, but the stock injectors need to go, proably need to go to something like the Turbo 944 injectors, but in a low resistance rating, like the 944. The FMU is also back up, I hope to loose it as well. Ideally I want something that you can just install, change injectors and chip and cll it a day.

I am not using a AFM - I converted to a MAF setup. that will work with any 2.5 Liter late model NA DME. in other words, took the early dme out of my 944, dropped in a late model unit (so I can chip it). The late model dme bolts right in, but you would normally have to use a late model AFM. The AFM is a restirction, the MAF isnt. Changing your AFM late or early to a MAF is an improvement in and off itself.

Side BAR: you can chip and early DME only if you solder in a new board... not for me, easier to use a late model DME, cause even with the mods to an early dme, the chip isnt up to being reprogrammed for this application.

Most 924S engines are using the late DME.

OK so anyway, the chip fuel map is being tweaked. SO a complete kit with or without a supercharger would include, things like:

Injectors, Chip, MAF, mounts for the eaton supercharger, belt, and belt tensioner should that be an option, also pulley for this specific setup.

Now in theory you could source your own supercharger, but it wouldnt be race ported, or coated, etc.

I havent thought all that mess out.... I did this for me and so I could stick it to anyone who says you have to pay 5000.00 for a supercharger kit!!!!

Other people may develop kits for the 944 or 924S, maybe the 924... not sure. Was never a concern, the prices for this sort of thing was, so I did it myself.

Ideally I would love to tear down a 83 944 block(forged internals) and coat everything I can, put her back together with a specially modified head and run insane boost.... push it to the limits....

Of course that kind of power would mean a clutch and trans change.

I am positive I can get 300 HP out of my 84 944 engine. How long she lasts with 100K plus on her... thats a different story... problem is going to be seeing all the factory stock seals and what not fail, leak, etc...

I am going to change the head soon, to a turbo head, leave the internals alone I think. Kick it up to 10 PSI and an intercooler. I have a few spare heads... even a turbo engine. Still I want to keep playing with this setup. Eventially I will go with a NA head that has been modified and coated. The Turbo head is just something I have available. Turbos can be fun, but I dont want a turbo.

Ok saying that is kind of a lie--- I wouldn't mind a turbo, infact I had two custom turbo manifolds made for the 944, mounts the turbo on the passenger side and even made one setup to mount the turbo on the drivers side just like the 944 Turbo. I even have several turbos... just havent pursued it, cause it means having to install an intercooler and deal with a lot more heat and stress on the engine.... also lag.

Heck one setup I have uses the stock factory non-turbo manifolds modified to work with a crossover pipe and another again uses the stock pipes modified to mount a turbo.

I just like the effeciency of the supercharger and low heat decent boost setup. When I have an engine or build an engine that can handle more than say 10-12 PSI then I can worry about the a turbo.

I think My 924 turbo needs more attention before I start turbocharging the '44. Factory turbo setup and configuration can use some serious work. Hince the supercharger conversion.

Now for you carburated guys and gals.... a draw thru configuration with turbo or supercharger... single four barrel carb.... no tuning an injection system, or any of that jazz... all you need is fuel, water, spark and air.

Weld up the stock injector holes. Run the pipe to the turbo or supercharger. Inlet side of supercharger or turbo mounts a carb with air filter. Some linkage and call it a day... want to run more boost, crank up the boost and go larger jets or larger carb.... simple. Only down side to draw thru is hard starts when the engine is very cold, but you can add a 5th injector like some VW engines... that sprays some fuel in to the intake... once the engine fires all set. Some place like florida.... this isnt an issue.

Great thing about a draw thru setup.... carbs are simple they deliver fuel based on vacum.... more vacum more fuel, upsize as needed to tweak fuel delivery along with boost.

How about that.... a turbo, your non boosted 924, a old 4 barrel carb, some welding/light fabrication.... do it yourself carburatted boost....

Just build it like the early 3.8 liter Turbo Regeals.. they where all carbed. late models got fuel injection....

Heck look at those monster tractor pulls... those engines see insane levels of boost with carbs....

So thats my update and thoughts for the day... to some it up. Yes some time soon a kit would be available of some kind. In the mean time if you want to do your own, let me know I will do what I can to point you in the right direction.

As for various vesions of superchargers... well the rotor models like the eaton... comes down to displacement of the supercharger... each rev displaces x amount of air at Y pressure... x is needs to match or exceed your needs, y needs to be the level you want....

A really small tiny supercharger like an air pump of any vehicle equiped with anti -smog emissions equipement can generate serious boost.. but not much in the way of air flow to small... yes those air pumps are little superchargers, a certain kind... look it up... learn something.... perfect for a go kart. But it would take lot of them to feed a larger engine....

The 2.5 needs around 440CFM at about 5000-6000 RPM... a 2.0 liter 924 engine needs less... very easy to supply that if you pic a supercharger that supplies a llittle more thats ok...

Boost and CFM flow from a supercharger or turbo charger is leative to size as well as speed.... get a supercharger that works for an engine in the same displacement range as your engine like the M62 Eaton... and you are half way done.

I can be reached at x3m944@cfl.rr.com or x3m944@clovermail.net

I will post more when I have more information on the latest greatest.

[ESC944]

You know I am going to replace my boost gauge, and I am going to upgrade to a different G-Tech unit, cause the car seems to making a lot of power, but 260 seems high. Considering the base line power of the car.

Well maybe its a little more boost and that number is more of a Flywheel horsepower... either way its hard to deny the power and feel of power driving her.

For those of you that want to do you own thing, you could fabricate up mounts and do the plumbing easy enough or have it done.

As for fuel delivery you could use a combo of additional injectors running full duty cycle as soon as 1 or 2 psi of boost is deteced, or use a AIC to control them. Then use a FMU to up the fuel pressure a little.

You could make some nice power at low boost levels and dirt cheap.

[Lizard]

or for the 924S/944 owners you could convert to a MAF instead of the barn door and let the computer compensate
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3 928s,