924Board.org

[Zuffen]

Add one of those volvo APC knock sensors and temp the head so you can see if it is gettign too hot, and I think you could add much longevity to the motor....how can you hear it ping when at rev it sounds like a coin in vacum cleaner anyhow....got to have something else to watch the motor.

Too bad those of us interested in these cars are spread so far apart.... I would love to play aroud with doing some wilder mods....The goal is 300HP (reliable) out of the 2.0
_________________
Bob Dodd - 924turbo@cox.net
931 1982, 944 1982 euro, 924S 1988SE, 93 968 tip 06 Silver Cayenne S, 06 Black Cayenne S

I have Way too many cars, parts for the 931,944 and 951

[Racing]

Glad to hear!
Welp,here´s more or less what´s been done so far;
Reciprocating assy more or less stock-with the exception of above.
Block has been stressed to 87mm and decked 0,2.
Rods as mentioned rebushed to 22(first time out for the GTS KS slugs)
Head has been ported and overhauled with the new valves,guides aso.Likewise decked on the bridgeport.
Current intake is a fairly ported stock one,but new one based on cut flanges and 40mm piping in the works.Will work off a 70 TB from an Alfa,and TB layout will be a´la the GTR.
Exhaust log is a ported stock one.
Turbo is a hybrid K27/26.Flows inxs of 440 horses worth of air at 1,6 bars.
Intercooler is custom fit by one in the gang on a spearco element.Fairly massive thingy that brings the intake temp down approx 100deg celsius.
Add on fuel managed by a simple microdynamics PIC5 that runs two Bosch 036 injectors at the set pressure of 5,5-6 bars(depending).
Also run som minor tricks as looped around LCI on the cam and such via adjustable pulley aso.
Exhaust is full 3" with a vortex based principle muffler and WG dumping right into free air.

[kye]

just to chip in with my 2c worth, but I come from a background in DIY hi-fi speakers, which is a reasonable parallel to cars in the cost/engineering/skill level required aspects..
I build speakers myself using off-the-shelf components because I like doing it, and it's a rewarding challenge when you get it right.

BUT, at the end of the day, I come out ahead financially as well, because in comparison to new speakers:
- I can spend more money on the things that drive the performance (not the aesthetics)
- My labour time is free (hey, it's a hobbie - I *like* it!)
- I can build things that aren't feasable to mass-produce.
- I can cater to my needs, not the publics needs, or current trends.

i'm not a car buff, far from it in fact, and i'm not looking to really do that much to my 931 (except fix the stuff that's broken), but there is value in the pursuit of something as a hobbie, and there are many things we can do that the factory can't (or won't).. I always try to keep in mind that my perspective is not always the same as the next guy, so when people tell me I can install a jet engine and the guidance computer from a SKUD missile and frighten the US army with it, I just roll my eyes and wish them well with their projects, and continue with mine.

I think the forums are great, as long as you take everything that people say in the context of their opinons, background, experience and goals. people here are the same as everywhere else, except we're a bit more civil to each other than most other places, and we have good taste in cars!

*click* and my time is up...
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it's funny, but when they said "Anything is Possible", that's exactly what they meant....

[wdb]

hey ,could you tell us a little about how to rebuild/make speakers , parts sources etc .

[John Brown]

One very good thing has come from this thread; and I would like to solicit Bob and 'Racing' to move to the 931 Tech discussion and continue what they've started. I have some questions I'd like to ask Racing; but this is not the thread to coninue (in).

OTOH. Mostly from Jon Furst's message:

"The 931 is a decent car in stock form, but with newer and faster cars appearing on showroom floors every year, it's time to work on keeping up. Wouldn't you like your 931 to keep up with a WRX? Yeah, they're always going to beat us off of the line, and with 227hp and 3085 pounds, they've got a serious power/weight advantage: 13.6 lbs/hp.

At the 931's stock weight (2779 lbs), you would need only 205 horsepower to keep up with the WRX. At that level, you'd be keeping up with stock non-S 951's as well. That level of power is only an intercooler and a boost controller away. EFI and other modifications will put you in even better company.

Anyone here ever raced a WRX before? How did it turn out?"

Not sure what the point is here Jon. Sure. Everyone would like to keep up with (you pick the car). The WRX is a good pick as a goal. And I am interested in what the fella's are doing to make their 931 'keep up'. On the other hand, while interesting as projects for tinker'ers (and I am one) I don't delude myself that any 931 can ever be 'equal' to a car that carries 4 people, has a modern effective AC system, 4 wheel drive, and costs just over 20K with a new car warranty. That said the WRX needs some serious work before it becomes equal to the 931 as a serious 'fast' car. The brakes give out way too soon and the handling is great; until you drive the 924 chassis.

"Another thing: There are no kill stories on this website. Mention racing on the street and a bunch of knitting grandmas show up and berate you. I think realizing that your car is slower than a Honda Civic Si will make you want to do some modifications.

I get the feeling that some of the members of this board drive the speed limit and get giggly when taking a freeway interchange at 5 mph over the limit, all while trying to keep from peeing their pants in the goddamn excitment of how "wonderfully" their car handles. "

Well Jon, how I know about the WRX is I have both 'raced' and driven them. True, I am one of those who disapproves of street racing. So I've played with them on the track. Sometimes I even go faster than 55mph on the track. And guilty as charged. I do enjoy the feeling of a car that handles, and sometimes I guess the pleasure could be said to make me'giggly'. But so far as I know I've never pee'd in my pants from the excitment. Probably just not going fast enough to get enough excitment. Even when I went into the gravel in the 911 x-racecar (probably wasn't going fast enough to be excited - maybe 120) or spun the 931 down the 'chute' (I know, I need to go faster - 90 just isn't fast enough in turn 4 - I working on not lifting) or coming off turn 10 (obviously that wasn't exciting cause I was in a 924 and we only get about 75mph exiting 10 - heck I should have done that on an off ramp where it could have been REALLY exciting - what COULD I be thinking) or my student driving the WRX got sideways in the backstraight kink at Beaver Run (well, now that I recall - THAT was exciting - maybe I should have checked the seat).

Also, you're just amazingly omniscient. My son and I HAVE been thinking about Honda's. About how as newer modern technology cars they do have some advantages over a 30 year old design and by golly, we're thinking of racing one.

"I'm not going to comment on the 924n/a segment of this website, except to say that innovation has long since left the 924n/a community, and it ain't coming back anytime soon. Even if they could innovate, no reasonable amount of money will make the 924n/a fast enough to be worth upgrading. They're screwed."

You don't even maintain the same logical position within one post. The n/a car can be 'hot rodded' with about the same level of sucess as the turbo.

As to the complaints that some of us (and I'm one) 'naysay' when someone asks "What can I do to make my 924 faster". Well, since the question is usually in the form of some specific item and we KNOW that the item doesn't represent measureable improvement AND we KNOW that the na car doesn't respond to a BUNCH of stuff with measureble improvement we give good advice.

From Rick's post:
"Now, if you want a list of the things I've done to my car, they're hardly innovative on other car sites, but not all of them are 'conventional' things we do to 924 Turbos. They include:

I won't repeat the list here. But I will comment that there is NOTHING innovative on it. Conventional? No one here ever says you can't do stuff like lighten a flywheel or use coated pistons. We DO share our understanding of the realistic expectations from the mods. Water spray cooling or injection? If it meets your needs and application do it. Toulene? If you want to use it be our guest. Don't complain if others point out the shortcomings and dangers. Adjustable boost controllers? Great.

I think some of the stuff going on is really interesting. Someone is doing an electric car conversion! INNOVATIVE!! I personally have absolutely no use for it; but I'm interested that it's going on! There were used to be at least 2 931s doing headers (not really innovative but you brought it up); it's out there for anyone interested who thinks it's cost effective for them. Cams? I was just talking about cams Sunday with someone. Which immeadiately led to a discussion about the limitation of the na intake CIS. We don't dislike cams; just realistic about what they can do. Unlike hotrodding a small block chevy we are limited there. Speaking of small block conversions. There is a V-6 around here someplace; maybe I'll see him again at the clubrace this year. I think that is really neat. I presently have no use for it myself; but it IS the ESSENCE of hot rodding. Not innovative but quintessential hot rodding.

Last night I was researching something online for my daughters 400ci sbc 84 Blazer project. And I noticed that on those boards also the most conservative answers/recommendations tended to come from the folks who worked on/used the cars the most. Like Vaughan, myself, Bob, Dan ... my apologies to those whose names I forget.

Maybe there's a reason.
_________________
John
80 931 - #931 44Cup
99 Escalade - tows track cars
gone but not forgotten: original 924.org car - 82

[924RACR]

Interesting thoughts... Particularly with respect to the piston design. You're absolutely right, Racing, the turbo piston design seems quite odd, why not just change the geometry to lower the compression?

Something for me to keep in mind as I work my way up to building a 931 race motor...
_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[924 turbo]

Picking apart a post of mine from 16 months ago doesn't exactly seem fair, but what the heck:

[Racing]

I´ll tell you what.
Around here all hell broke lose after the initial "the fast and the furious".
Every snot nosed kid was to go streetracing up the walls if needed!

So,as a representative of organized dragracing around here,what i did was to make contact with the younger gen and started to be part of them.
At the same time we-from organized DR-took contact with the authoritys and made the listen as well as look.

I´ve bailed ship since long,but the outcome has been a by now nationwide organisation known as "blackrace".
Blackrace is sanctioned in every way there is,and has been kept as simple as it can possibly be.

What´s the point of me explaining this?

Well....blackraces are run on closed off regular streets in the direct proximity of metropolitan areas in this country.
As "real" dragrace tracks are scarse,that the way it was found pliable,and as such what these guys do this day is that they close the street-with all the authorotys approvals for doing so-set up a modified tree and go at it.

Whole deal has been a HUGE success,and what´s more is that everyone´s happy.
Illegal streetracing is more or less dead.
So far no real crash or anything.
Cost has been minimal for everybody involved.

I´ll tell you what.
Even I have been out there with different cars just to have a good time on numerous occasion,and i can PROMISE that a time slip for my 931 will be posted asap.

[John Brown]

Very impressive program. Congratulations on your activism.

How bout a diesel powered 931? I see where the diesel drag race trucks are turning amazing times! Something about 1000 lb/ft trq, 4WD and launching 7000 lbs of truck into an 11 sec quarter that is fascinating.

Well, speaking of racing. It's off to Mid Ohio for the weekend. Not taking either of the 924s this time. Gonna haul a friends 951 out. It's got those swaybars the size of small trees on it. We'll see if we can test the body roll.

Cheers
_________________
John
80 931 - #931 44Cup
99 Escalade - tows track cars
gone but not forgotten: original 924.org car - 82

[924guy]

interesting stuff... and many good points made here.. but i think innovation can come in many different forms. In my book, it doesnt have to produce speed or power. a little bit ago ago someone posted on upgrading dash lighting to lthe newer led bulbs. For our old cars, this was a great retrofit and the application was "innovative" as far as im concered.. i see new ideas here all the time. they may not be earth shaking but its the details and thought put into them that count.. Jon from England is completely redesigning heads.. and he has the equipment , desire and abilities to really play and see what will work..again, thats innovative.. i could go on and on..
I sense allot of frustration in this thread, possibly from a want of some pure "seat sucking power" , and while im sure this goal is possible, that alone discounts many of the other great qualities of the 924 series cars that got most of us into them in the first place. Our cars do well as a result of a mixture of engineering, balance, handling and yes, even some power...
a few months ago i went out car shopping, i tested just about all of the newer pocket rockets..some were very quick, some handled well, some were just plain impressive in technology and design.. but in the end, not one of them gave me the same feel of magic and all around capability that my 931 offers. i ended up buying a truck because beleive it or not, it felt more like my 931 than most of the sports cars out there, with the added bonus of true offroad capability and the ability to trailer my 931 when needed so i can get the 931 back in shape again.... my 931 may be 24 years old, but as far as im concerned its still a better package than all of the new sports cars out there...

tell me a new way of fixing something to make my life a bit easier, show me how to update some things on my 931 to make it faster, safer, and more enjoyable... these things are innovation to me and allow me to be more comfortable... they help me drive faster, better and safer.. and ive found these things here. they dont need to be earth shattering, like the 931, the euphoria is in the small details...
just my .02 , YMMV....
_________________
Eric
78 924
82 931 SE "smokey"
99' VehiCross
Y2K Honda Insight
http://www.cardomain.com/id/924Guy
Performance by Pasha

[AndyFranklin]

[Racing]

John.
That there comment brings a smíle to my face.
Zee...old friend of mine is former super truck champ Kurt Göransson.
Anyways.
They visited us at a place called Mantorp park several yrs ago the days before their GP in Sweden with those monsters.
After a hard days work-each in our own place-Kurt came walking up and offered me a ride in one of those thingys.

As he knew i was accustomed to single seaters he took a thing or two for granted,but none the less came to ask me if i get car sick easily-and i replied no.
Then he asked if spook easily when things feel like they´re gonna hit the fan out on the track at speeds-and again i replied no.

Off we went in his MAN super truck and let me tell ya...those suckers HAUL as massive as you can ever imagine!
The revs of the engines contra the speed impression is simply out of this world!
Couple of yrs back they got restricted,and as a result were left with a "mere" approx 1100 hp..before that they were extracting inxs of 1700 according to these guys themselves.
The word insane comes to mind.

I´ve gone wide open with Ralts,Judds,Dallaras and the rest of them in gods haven,but NOTHING has ever come close of the impression of being in the pass seat that wednesday of that friggin 5 ton BRICK sliding around the bends with full 4 wheel drift with a foot or so to go for the armco.
NOTHING.
The whole deal is and was sort of surreal really.

Have to add...
What got me the most however was Kurt himself.
Even by then in his 50;s he just sat there quite comfortably driving this thing on the edge,and he didn´t even break a sweat!
On Mantorp theres a chikane and on one of the laps we took he started laughing as we approached and said;"Look at this man!" and just let go of the steering wheel.
We launched over that chikane with this potemkin thingy doing about 120 km or so and with Kurt laughing like a damn madman at the wheel.
The truck didn´t even NOTICE the damn curbs by god!
If i got scared?
A "little"...at times..

[cleethorpes]

innovation does cost money.

Problem being no one seems to sell ANYTHING for the 931 in the uk, so inovation is the only route.

Fitted a 944 intercooler in the nose of mine (haven't fitted the pipes to connect it yet though!) gonna lighten the flywheel, high lift cam etc etc etc... what more can we do?

A standard style backbox is around £80 a dansk backbox around £170 an aftermarket system about £600 (not inc manifold).

I had a cosworth and an entire 3" stainless system was £450.

I agree with those who say the 924/931 is a car for porsche lovers who haven't got money to burn.
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'24 turbo with dodgy gt bodykit......needs a new home

[wdb]

cleethorpes wrote , I agree with those who say the 924/931 is a car for porsche lovers who haven't got money to burn.


that and most of us have become dependent on corporations for so long we have forgoten how to do stuff on our own . alot of people spend $500 on 10 feet/3 meters of bent pipe , that cost $20 straight . because , finding , buying,a pipe bender , and welding machine and learning how to use them, take money ,time ,and energy , what most dont have . yeah I got scared money too.

[Paul]

According to Quicken, since 1993 I've spent $14,170.28 on my 1980 931S (including the $4500 purchase price). I do most of the work myself, so I'm sure I've got hundreds of hours of wrenching (FUN!).

And it still needs new paint and fresh tires!

I'll gladly spend 3 or 4 thousand dollars for a 300 horsepower bolt on kit that does not require any changes to the body.

Twist my arm, I might pay more!

I'm glad my wife never visits this site!