924Board.org

[Lakeview]

@Raize
@scm924s

I'm back scratching my head and looking for a little input on the previous replies......

This car started and ran when I got it. Not well, but ran. I like things clean so I cleaned and pressure washed the engine bay. That's basically when the problems started.

So far I have drained tank. It wasn't too bad. It had the old fuel pump that was disabled and left in the tank. I cleaned tank, replaced with just the strainer. New Bosch fuel pump. New hoses. New filter in engine bay. I did find one of the wires on the old pump loose but I have a feeling the water has caused a problem.

Now since those repairs I pulled down both fuse panels. I think I had a corroded fuse for the fuel pump. When moving wiring fuel pump came on. This happened while jumper wire was in and not the relay. I can make the fuel pump run via jumper but not relay. I can hear fuel swishing in the filter. Car won't start. Seems to be a no fire issue. Me being a one man show I can't check under hood. I have cleaned grounds. Removed the CD box, cleaned terminals and ground.

And this is happening. The car apparently had an alarm installed probably early on. These are the relays I was referring to earlier. I think it was probably done at a Porsche dealer because it has a lock cylinder installed in the drivers door. The key that operates it is also the fuel cap key. It is in the vertical position which is disabled. I have tried it in both positions. In the disabled position when you open either door the alarm horns will beep several times. Same way in the armed position. Doesn't go for 30 seconds like I've read in the owners manual.

My question ultimately is does anyone think the alarm could be causing the car to be disabled? I don't know if in 83 alarms had that capability. It looks complicated to try and remove. Would the alarm disable the fuel pump relay? Not sending current to the distributor? I'm pulling out what little bit of hair I have left. I've done several other updates/repairs and am itching to drive this beast!

I have purchased a set of factory manuals and hopefully they arrive this week.
As scm924s said the Haynes manual is just about useless!

Sorry for the long drawn out but I wanted to cover everything up to now.

[morghen]

Alarm usually disables the fuel pump and/or the ignition system.
Check that the pump runs when you switch on the ignition, and when you crank the car, check that there is spark generated by the spark plugs.
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Supercharger and EFI kits
https://www.the924.com

[Raize]

You can use a timing light to check for spark while not being in the engine bay. You will need a timing light eventually anyway to set the timing. I got one with advance/retard control which is a very useful feature, for about £40.

Don't worry about the fuel pump relay right now, continue using the jumper wire until the car can at least actually run and then we can figure that out later. As long as the fuel pump is running, no alarm system would be able to interfere with the fuel supply as it's all hydraulic.

[scm924s]

Old alarms are a nightmare, doing all sorts of unpredictable things, often not helped by a previous owner, having lost the key/fob to operate it, get another alarm added! I've ripped out no end of them from my 924's.

Mostly these disable the ignition side of things, if you have the pump running with a jumper, I think it's safe to assume that is OK. You can check for a spark by using an inline HT spark tester, or hold (carefully)a connected plug on to the cam cover, you can also check for fuel at an injector by pulling one with fuel line attached and sticking it in a jar, remove the air filter and stick your hand inside to lift the air flap gently.
_________________
1984 n/a Ruby Red Metallic
1988 924S Guards red- sold
1986 924S Guards Red - sold
1984 n/a Black - sold
1980 n/a Le Mans#1 - sold
1980 n/a Le Mans#2- sold
1977 Martini - sold

[Lakeview]

@scm924s I have the key and can turn the lock cylinder in the door. I would love to remove/disable it all together. I have a couple of cut wires hanging where the relays are mounted. Also, a black wire and another under the dash near the fuse panel. I'm hesitant to unwire the alarm stuff and maybe make things worse. Any direction on removing the alarm?
Are you saying with the pump jumped that the alarm is disabled?

@Raize Reading information on the relay am I correct that one of the pins controls voltage to the distributor? With the key on I do have voltage to one side of the coil. Even with the fuel pump running I still have to have ignition. Alarm system won't interfere if the pump is running?

Thanks for the tips. I've been using a timing light for about 50 years since I started with points cars. I suppose if I put the timing light on a plug it would blink when voltage was present. I can probably do that solo since I never have any help.....

I bought a set of factory manual off eBay and they also come with three years of updates. Not sure what is in those.
And, while I'm writing this the Fedex man just showed up here in the state of Georgia 10:20 eastern standard time...... YIPPIE!

[scm924s]

[Lakeview]

@scm924s

I think jumping the fuel pump is just putting power on the pump. Car doesn't know if the ignition is active or not. I think that's what you are saying.

Looking at my new to me factory manuals it has an alarm section. It shows a hatch switch this car doesn't have. It does have an under hood switch that has fell apart. The manual shows how to disable the factory alarm. I am going to dive in and see if this one is similar since I think it was possibly a Porsche accessory add on. Time for some serious troubleshooting!

Knowledge is power. I think I have more power now with the factory manuals versus that useless Haynes manual. I got another one with this purchase too. These manuals can also help me with my 944. One of my ex wives would give me a hard time about amassing books, manuals, magazines, etc. She just didn't understand!

[Beartooth]

It's going to be painful, but with the wiring diagrams and enough digging, you should be able to figure out how the alarm was wired in and what it's doing. I'm assuming you don't care about the alarm, so eliminating it and restoring the wiring to factory would be the way to go. Even if you did want an alarm, starting fresh would be the way I'd go. My Mercedes has a factory alarm, which has failed and been disconnected (thankfully, not difficult); I heaven't heard of anyone bothering to try to fix one, although anything's possible. I wouldn't be afraid of ripping out the alarm components, with the caveat that you want to make sure you're only removing the alarm and its associated wiring. Of course, certain circuits may have been disturbed at more than one point, which would make restoring them that much more challenging. Anyway, it's pretty likely the alarm deactivates the ignition somehow, and if that's the case, you also wouldn't get fuel because the fuel pressure relay runs off the ignition signal. In the case of interrupting something like the fuel pump that's one a relay, it's almost always the signal that will be interrupted, so it makes sense the jumper would work; it sounds like maybe some corroded contacts causing trouble there too. I ran into the with my flashers: one side would tend to freeze on until I used some contact cleaner (Deoxit) on the blades and terminals; now it works great.
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1980 931 diamond in the rough

[scm924s]

[Lakeview]

@Beartooth. Yes, it is very painful already! I'm not a wiring expert and am hesitant to even try to remove the whole system. I would prefer that but just making sure it's disabled would be sufficient.

@scm924s. I haven't pulled an injector yet but that is my next step for the fuel system. I feel confident that I have fuel. I can feel vibration at the filter and lines. Like the old adage if it has air, fuel, spark and compression it should run. I'm missing the spark obviously. I didn't have much time yesterday but went through the factory manual concerning disabling the alarm. The factory alarm has different components. This Bosch immobilizer has different terminal designations. Part number 0335411013 is called an immobilizer but I can't really find any info on it.

Looking at the manual I am going to start with the ignition side and check all the obvious. Coil, distributor, spark box etc. It is also mentioning the ignition switch. I would think it cranking over that it would be ok but who knows. The manual I received was printed in 1982 and it seems a lot of the info is for older models. The distributor with the external resistors and such. I hate wiring problems and really suck at chasing them. It's tough on an old man contorting under the dash like I did yesterday. I cleaned all the grounds above the fuse panel and feel it today. I have now cleaned all the grounds from front to rear even the headlight grounds. Headlights will go up and down but not come on. I think it would be unusual for both bulbs to be blown but that's another problem for later.

[scm924s]

I note you feel confident that you have fuel, but if it not reaching the injectors, then it is no help! Pull an injector and lift the fuel flap gently (all switched on) to se if injector sprays. When you try a cold start, the 5th injector on the rear of the manifold air chamber, should spray for a short period.

Concerning no spark, a simple check with a removed plug as previously described should confirm this.
_________________
1984 n/a Ruby Red Metallic
1988 924S Guards red- sold
1986 924S Guards Red - sold
1984 n/a Black - sold
1980 n/a Le Mans#1 - sold
1980 n/a Le Mans#2- sold
1977 Martini - sold

[Raize]

[Lakeview]

@Raize
@scm924s

I put in a long day of troubleshooting yesterday and here's the results.

I pulled a plug and verified I had no spark.

Removed number one injector line. Didn't feel comfortable removing the injector and possibly causing a leak. Raising the fuel flap I had fuel. It was kinda milky looking most likely since I didn't flush out the old fuel. So, I worked the flap for a while trying to get it to clear up. It never did.

So, I moved on to the ignition problem. Going through the service manual I checked coil, distributor, ignition module, etc. It was (I thought) leading me to a bad coil but I think I just wasn't getting a good ground as the ohm value was not right. I got to looking closer at the distributor. The prongs all looked corroded so I took a small file and did a little cleaning. Since one was at the pickup spot I decided to bump the engine over. Well, it locked down solid. I tried turning it at the crank with same results. Putting my thinking cap on I'm thinking it's hydro locked. Removed all the plugs and sure enough dumbass me filled all the cylinders with fuel trying to flush the fuel in the beginning! All the injectors are working!

Assembled it back together. Checked spark and it was there.

It now runs, fuel pump relay installed with a normal system. Problem is it doesn't want to run unless I leave the hose at the throttle body barely pulled away. I let it run for a while. Comes up to temperature and fan works, stays in normal range. But if I put the rubber boot back on it dies. I have a little weeping at the fuel filter bottom line so I'm thinking about disconnecting it, jumping the fuel pump relay and see if I can flush out the line of whatever the milky looking stuff is and get fresh fuel through.

I'm elated that it's at least running. What about thoughts on getting it to running normally??? Thanks for all the input.

[Raize]

Milky looking stuff would be fuel/water emulsion I guess?
If the car has been running then everything will be flushed now, there aren't any dead legs on the fuel system.

If you have to pull away the throttle body hose to make it run then you are creating un-metered air, forcing the engine to run leaner. So This would suggest you need to turn the mixture screw on the fuel distributor anticlockwise until it runs without having to do that.

Now it's running, change your oil NOW before doing anything else. It will be absolutely ruined with fuel.

[Beartooth]

Weird that you'd get a milky color: oil and coolant makes kind of a chocolate milkshake, but water doesn't normally react with gas itself, so you're more likely to see a rusty color if there's water contamination. Doesn't matter though: you're gong to want to run a bunch of fuel system cleaner through it - probably a couple different ones (some are basically a solvent, others are just a big dose of detergent). Definitely make sure you put in something that advertises removing water. You may need new injectors and maybe some fuel distributor and/or warm-up regulator work - but if you can get it running well enough to drive it, there's also a chance things will clear up. Mine was varnished up - someone had left fuel lines un-done - and although there was a lot of back and forth, I think it just needed that cleared up and to get the frequency valve going again.

Hopefully there's no significant damage done from the hydro-locking; that's one thing I warn people about when you're running the fuel pump with the engine off. Raize is definitely right about changing the oil. Put some cheap new oil in it, then probably change it again shortly - both to eliminate any more fuel contamination, and because you may have knocked a bunch of crud loose in the crankcase. As for getting it to run better, first I'd put a bunch of fuel system cleaner in it along with enough gas to mix it a bit, then undo the fuel injector lines and spirt gas into some jars until it runs clear. It'd also be a good idea to take the warm-up regulator off and flush it out (I had control pressures shoot way up a couple times because of crud blocking the screen until it all got worked out). It might also help to dribble some fuel injector cleaner in the injectors, let it sit, and then blow it out with compressed air - hopefully get any crud that's gathered in the screens out. Try to blow it back out, not through the injector, at least once or twice; then it might not hurt to actually blow some through the injector. I'd see if new spark plugs make any difference while you're at it. There could still be two or three different issues at play, but I'd hone in on the fuel contamination; it may just run fine once it's cleared up.
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1980 931 diamond in the rough