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2mAn
Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 27
Location: Seattle, WA
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 Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:36 am Post subject: |
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ill take some pics of my parts later tonight when im home.
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25% of my cars work 75% of the time |
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v8carreragts
Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 665
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Actually this isn't correct. The early 924 used Super Beetle rear suspension. After 77.5 the spring plate bushings were changed and were not Super Beetle anymore. The trailing arms are the same for 924/944 through 1995.5. The Beetle guys use the 924/944 stub shafts and Type II CV joints as an upgrade.
I upgraded the rear brakes an a 1975 Super Beetle to 5 lug by just swapping the complete trailing arms and swapping the stub shafts and inner bushings back to the Beetle ones. The inner bushings are different on the Beetle. They have a very large hole. (about 1" in diameter) I also used the 944 front spindles and brakes. You need to make a ball joint stud bushing because the Super Beetle uses the same ball joint as the early 924 and the tie rod hole taper is upside down compared to the Beetle. The 924/44 spindle has the tie rod end mounted from under the spindle steering arm and the Beetle is mounted from the top. But since I lowered the beetle considerably (3")this was an advantage.
The late Super Beetle strut inserts are interchangeable as long as you do not lower the 924. The stroke is slightly higher. But this really doesn't matter as the inserts cost about the same anyway.
There are many little parts that interchange between the late Beetles and Rabbit. The late Beetle ignition switch is the same but much cheaper from VW suppliers. The late turn signal switch looks interchangeable with the early 924 but it isn't electrically. The wiper switch looks like it would but does not electrically as well.
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84 944--924 Carrera GTS clone w/520HP Chevy 302 V8--RUNNING!
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2mAn
Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 27
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Spoke with the guy (Sandro) and he said he's actually sold a few sets to porsche guys before and he would gladly do a group buy. Heres a pic and link directly from his site
http://www.lellaautosport.com/mk1_delrin_control_arm_bushings.html
He would like to come over here, but doesnt want to advertise because he is worried he will step on advertisers' toes. Not sure if you guys have paid advertisers here?
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RC
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 2637
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| fiat22turbo wrote: | | Be careful of the balljoint stud diameter. The 924 uses the larger diameter ball joint studs. |
FYI my 77 ROW had the same smaller stud diameter balljoints, 15mm IIRC. No idea if that also applies to US models or when they changed the spindles to accept the larger 17mm studs as used on later years and the 944s. Using calipers and referencing the PET first would be a good idea.
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World`s quickest 924 2L slushbox
| Allan @ DTA wrote: | | I have no issue with superchargers, they are for guys who want to drive a car rather than talk about horsepower with their baseball cap on backwards |
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fiat22turbo
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 4040
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, my 79 had the 17mm studs.
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Stefan
1979 924 Carrera GTS (clone-ish)
1988 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose) |
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Rasta Monsta
Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 11733
Location: PacNW
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:43 am Post subject: |
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Durr, that is a chunk more than Racer'e Edge. . .I thought they were gonna be cheap?
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Toofah King Bad
- WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3
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2mAn
Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 27
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:50 am Post subject: |
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how cheap were expecting them to be? these arent poly. also those are just his advertised prices, im sure on a group buy it would be cheaper, especially considering racers edge has them for $20 less than his advertised price. i was able to negotiate and get my control arms with delrin and also some more stuff for quite a bit less than advertised. i have no affiliation with the guy, its just who i bought mine from
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fiat22turbo
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 4040
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Oddly, delrin is easier to machine than poly, so building your own isn't out of the realm of possibilities.
Especially given that delrin wears out and gets loose over time.
Hit up TAP plastics some time and ask them how much a piece of delrin is in the appropriate size. Then ask a local machinist (or friend with a lathe) how much to build some bushings out of Delrin.
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Stefan
1979 924 Carrera GTS (clone-ish)
1988 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose) |
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gegge
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1124
Location: Sweden
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Lizard
Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 9364
Location: Abbotsford BC. Canada
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:13 am Post subject: |
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I personally think that the poly bushings should be made illegal.
If you learn about suspension and how it works, you would realise that poly (and delrin), is a very poor way to take out a little slop from your suspension.
If you want to remove the play in your suspension go to spherical bearings on everything. But AVOID poly and delrin! (swaybars are OK, but they will wear out the bar and squeek).
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Min
Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Lizard wrote: | | I personally think that the poly bushings should be made illegal. |
That implies that they are dangerous.....
| Lizard wrote: | | If you learn about suspension and how it works, you would realise that poly (and delrin), is a very poor way to take out a little slop from your suspension. |
I'd like to think by this point I have a good understanding of suspension, and material properties. Please enlighten me as to why it is a poor way to take out slop?
Min
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Custom means it didn't come from a box.
1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting. |
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RC
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 2637
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| fiat22turbo wrote: | | Oddly, delrin is easier to machine than poly |
Sure is, particularly on softer grades, BTDT. However for production runs polyurethane is molded and not machined. Mix part A & B, pour, wait, release. Considerably less labour intensive than machining from solid stock and no material wastage. Its the ~40% scrap swarf and machining time that significantly increases the cost.
| fiat22turbo wrote: | | Hit up TAP plastics some time and ask them how much a piece of delrin is in the appropriate size. Then ask a local machinist (or friend with a lathe) how much to build some bushings out of Delrin. |
Personally don`t think there`ll be much change from $120 unless you have a Mexican or Chinese friend who works for a few $/Hr. And then you need to source & machine the steel sleeves too. IMHO $120 is reasonable.
| Lizard wrote: | ... is a very poor way to take out a little slop from your suspension.
If you want to remove the play in your suspension ... |
Pardon my lack of comprehension Lizard, I fail to read where in this thread any mention of play or slop is raised. The issue (as I understand) is replacing the old OE RUBBER bushes.
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World`s quickest 924 2L slushbox
| Allan @ DTA wrote: | | I have no issue with superchargers, they are for guys who want to drive a car rather than talk about horsepower with their baseball cap on backwards |
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fiat22turbo
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 4040
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:20 am Post subject: |
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I have free access to a milling machine and a lathe and have made my own bushings. Its kinda fun compared to dealing with computer issues all day.
However, it doesn't hurt to ask a local machinist as some do work on the side for bartered services (like say, computer work, a fifth of their favorite libation, etc)
I'm not saying DIY is the best solution for everyone, just saying that it is an option for some. Also, I wanted to point out that I feel the cost involved in the premade versions were too high considering the efforts involved in making them (especially with automated machinery)
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Stefan
1979 924 Carrera GTS (clone-ish)
1988 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose) |
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Lizard
Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 9364
Location: Abbotsford BC. Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Ok, I will explain further.
Look at the factory rubber bushings. VERY difficult to install, massive amounts of compression on them.
Or they come with an internally, and externally bonded sleeve.
The way the suspension bushings work is that the rubber is held fast to the center pin, and the outer ROTATES, or the outer is held fast and the inner ROTATES. So we look at how this works. The rotation is taken up in the elasticity of the bonded, or heavily conpressed rubber. It allows it to rotate, and returns to the original location with little deflection. But nothing rubs.
The rubber twists to absorb the motion.
When you go to a hard plastic such as Delrin, or Poly. The part MUST retain the same motion, but Delrin and Poly do not flex, or twist. So how does the new part work? Well it works because the bolt, or metal tube that sits in the center of it is SPINNING inside. This means that two non lubricated items are rubbing against one another. This leads to rapid wear of the components.
Sure the rubber bushings have more deflection (minute, and only to be seen in track conditions), than the delrin or Poly. But the Delrin and Poly do not absorb and release the motion (energy), like the rubber bushing does. Instead it wears two parts out. If there is no inner sleeve and just a bolt is used, the bolt fails quickly. If the metal sleeve is used, it will depend on how tightly the bolt is tightened down as to if the sleeve or the bolt are the pieces that are spinning inside the bushing.
Once the bolt starts to wear it begins to loose integrity. Meaning that you're out on the track, and that worn bolt has a ridge worn into it. This is a stress riser, and BANG the bolt snaps.
Your tire pulls out, or pushes in causing an accident, destroying the car, possibly anothers car.
So it is not worth the risk IMO.
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Rasta Monsta
Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 11733
Location: PacNW
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Lizard wrote: | | This means that two non lubricated items are rubbing against one another. |
Egads, he's right! Without some way of providing "lubrication," we are all doomed! DOOMED!
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Toofah King Bad
- WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3
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924 FAQ (Technical)
