924Board.org

Ken Greenfield · Joined: 23 May 2011 Posts: 14 Location: New Port Richey, FL

Hi Folks,

I am a new member to this BB. I am a bit out of my element on a 924 BB, and I am hoping that you folks can help me. Like you I am a Porsche enthusiast. Most of my experience with Porsches comes in the way of 914's.

Much of that experience is in 914-6 race cars. I currently have two Vintage 914-6's which I campaign in two different Vintage classes. I recently became aware of a 924/931 race car that is in the market. It is the former Apollo plastics car and appears to be well known in DP and GT-3 SCCA racing.

What can you kind people tell me about the 933 and do you have any first hand knowledge about this type of car generally and this car specifically. Some of my questions include:

1) Reliability. Is this car reliable and well made enough to not cost a fortune to operate. In the 80's I was associated with a team that ran a factory derivative of a 944 Turbo or perhaps more correctly a 944 GTR. The car was blazing fast but very fragile. I don't need that same kind of situation with the 933. Of course I realize it is not turbo charged but in my cars I stress reliability over speed. I'll take less speed for more reliability any day.

2) Especially in the areas of the motor and the tranny. What in the world is a "snail shell" tranny? I gather it is a five speed. Is it all synchro? How would you relate it to a 901 gearbox as used in 914's and early 911's. Is it any more difficult to use and to rebuild than a 901. Are parts for the motor and tranny available. Especially gears and other parts to build back up equipment?

3) I have raced 944's which are lovely cars. How would you rate a 933 to a 944?

4) PLEASE help me with unasked questions or advice. The pros and cons of this type of car.

5) Any real weak points in the car that I ought to know about?
I guess I need a quick course in these cars and any hints or tips would be greatly appreciated. In addition to whatever you post might I trouble you for a PM to rittmeister@tampabay.rr.com. Thanks in advance. Ken Greenfield
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Ken Greenfield

Dutch924-racer · Joined: 23 Jul 2007 Posts: 1081 Location: The Netherlands

Talking about this car ?

http://bringatrailer.com/2011/05/19/bat-exclusive-1980-porsche-933-scca-factory-racer/
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937 trackday car
Series 2 engine
951S turbo and intercooler
Fast road camshaft
Forge recirculation valve + boost controller

Ken Greenfield · Joined: 23 May 2011 Posts: 14 Location: New Port Richey, FL

Yes, that is the car.
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Ken Greenfield

924RACR · Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:48 pm Post subject:

Hey Ken, and welcome!

First up - no, a GT car is NOT ever going to be a low-maintenance type of car. Any racecar as you know of course needs attention; the faster/more tweaked it is, the harder it is to keep happy.

It may not cost a fortune to operate... but it's not gonna be anything like cheap. Since the factory doesn't support 924's like it does the 914's etc - finding parts isn't gonna get any easier too.

If you want something fairly solid to operate on track - you'd be better off with a 911 Supercup car. Seriously. That's coming direct from another guy with a former DP 933 now built to GT3 specs, as well as the Supercup car. Oh, yeah, now he's playing with GTRs. Can you say glutton for punishment?

The snail box is a rarer, stronger box based off the 901 box. At least it is in that car. Idola has some of the necessary parts... now.

I can't say for certain (maybe the aforementioned 933 owner will chime in, as he does have the experience) but I'd expect this as a GT car will be... well, distinctly more challenging to drive than a 944. But in a good way.
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Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

924RACR · Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:49 pm Post subject:

Oh, yeah, and if you are serious about that reliability over speed thing - there's an excellent ITB 924 for sale here...

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Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

Ken Greenfield · Joined: 23 May 2011 Posts: 14 Location: New Port Richey, FL

Dear Vaughan,

Thanks but SCCA club racing is not where I want to go. Were I able to buy the 933 I might try a GT-3 race but my heart is in Vintage. Different stokes for different folks.
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Ken Greenfield

924RACR · Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:07 am Post subject:

OK, cool - I hear ya there, and in fact the 933 would probably be better suited to Vintage. I don't know that it could still actually be competitive in GTL in SCCA.

Of course, it's also possible you could retrofit the 933 (more or less) to DP specs and run it there in Vintage, for that matter.

I'd also point out that the ITB car could readily be upgraded to DP specs and run in Vintage (depending on your Vintage rules, I know some orgs are more anal about provenance than others).

Sounds like you might want to talk to Scott Sanda, the guy I referred to earlier, as far as getting/runnning this 933, if you're still considering it.

OTOH, if you talked to him, you might equally get talked into buying his 933...

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Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

Rasta Monsta · Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 11733 Location: PacNW

P.S. In terms of reliability, you should read up on Kugelfischer mechanical F.I. Complex system, with a pump that costs a fortune to refresh IF you can find someone knowledgable enough to do it.
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Toofah King Bad

WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3

Dutch924-racer · Joined: 23 Jul 2007 Posts: 1081 Location: The Netherlands

Looks like this car has Webers on it:

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937 trackday car
Series 2 engine
951S turbo and intercooler
Fast road camshaft
Forge recirculation valve + boost controller

Rasta Monsta · Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 11733 Location: PacNW

D'oh! Did not see that pic! Hee!

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Toofah King Bad

WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3

fiat22turbo · Joined: 18 Jan 2006 Posts: 4040 Location: Portland, OR

Looks like SDS programmable ignition as well.

Wonder if the seller has any of the original parts for the car anymore? The original mechanical FI and bodywork would keep the car worthwhile as a potential restoration project downstream.
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Stefan
1979 924 Carrera GTS (clone-ish)
1988 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose)

Fifty50Plus · Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:35 am Post subject:

That looks like a sweet piece and a great price for the provenance. I raced against the D Prod 924s back in the day with my 911 Targa. I had straight line speed but they had everything else.
As Vaughan said, Scott Sanda is the guy to talk to.
Enjoy,
Chuck
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1979 924 NA race car H-Prod SCCA
1982 924 NA race car - Sold
1981 924 Turbo sold
1982 924 Turbo sold
1972 911 E race car - traded for Cayenne Diesel
1975 914 1.8 Building for H-Prod SCCA

Ken Greenfield · Joined: 23 May 2011 Posts: 14 Location: New Port Richey, FL

Hi Folks,

I really appreciate the posts and advice on this topic that I started. Some very helpful bits and pieces here which will help me greatly. I have closed on the deal and will make the long drive from FL to CT to bring the car home the middle of June. On the way home I will stop in South Carolina and visit with the owner of two of the sixteen cars produced to pick his brain.

For those of you interested, on the 933 page the car I have purchased is the #53 Apollo Plastics/Diabolo Racing car. To honor the car's history and the last man to race it (Tom Scheuren) I will leave the colors and scheme essentially the same. I will add my team logo (Scuderia Manfred) and markings to the current scheme.

It looks as though we will need to pull the head and do a freshening job and replace all rubber products as the car has not raced in 5-6 years. As I have read the history of these wonderful cars I have been fascinated in the amount of money that was put into these cars some thirty years ago.

When I get the car back to Florida, I will share pix of her for the 924 faithful. My air cooled brethern will probably disown me. Man is this a cool little car!
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Ken Greenfield

924RACR · Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject:

Very cool, congratulations!

Next time I visit my parentals (down the road in Dunedin) I'll have to plan to swing by and check 'er out...

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Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

Ken Greenfield · Joined: 23 May 2011 Posts: 14 Location: New Port Richey, FL

Hey Vaughan,

You'll be more than welcome to visit her at our race shop. I live in New Port Richey and I keep my cars at a small but tidy shop in Hudson, FL. The same is true for any of you folks on this BB.

I am even known to throw in lunch for visitors. Those of you who attend SVRA or HSR Vintage races on the East Coast do look us up at the track. We'll be racing our 914-6's (blue with yellow wheels and flying the Scuderia Manfred banner) for the near future until we get the 933 sorted out.
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Ken Greenfield