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agfisher
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 483
Location: West Hartford, CT
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 Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ideola wrote: | | I don't remember the access hole being too small to get my hands up in there. I just removed a 944 trans that has the same bell housing, and I was able to get my hand in the access hole and grip the coupler with no problem. But some guys have larger hands than me! If that's not an option for you, try using a large flat head screw driver positioned on one of the square ends of the coupler and give it a good whack or two. A pickle fork also works really nice because you can distribute the impact on both sides of the square flange. |
Maybe the older transmissions had a smaller hole? Mine measures about a 3 or 4 inch in diameter. That's small enough for me that if I put a tool in there I can hardly get any light in there also.  When you say to use a "flat head screw driver positioned on one of the square ends of the coupler and give it a good whack or two" what is the purpose of this. Am I just trying loosen the whole coupler up and separate the two parts that are squeezed together with the bolt? Or am I supposed to be focusing the blow on the bolt itself? Sorry if I'm being a little obtuse.
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1977 924 N/A Martini Edition |
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agfisher
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 483
Location: West Hartford, CT
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Rich H wrote: | Have we established dogleg or audi trans yet?? 
Audi boxes & tts have a big rubber bung in the bellhousing and a smaller round bung on the side loads of space unless they changed it in later years?
Also the early 4 speed audi boxes could be moved backwards by 5" before they hit the spear wheel well, easily clearing the coupler if you are careful. As long as one of the coupler bolts is fully removed then the coupler will slide off attached to one side or the other.
If you do this you must ensure the box is pulled back straight or you run the risk of bending something major.  |
Heya Rich,
It's 77 with an audi 4 spd. When looking at the transmission the tail end of it is only about an inch or so from the front of the spare tire carrier. I'm not seeing how it can slide back. I'll take a picture and post it for you when I get home tonight. Maybe I'm just not seeing something.
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1977 924 N/A Martini Edition |
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15550
Location: Spring Lake MI
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:51 am Post subject: |
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It won't...at least in my experience, the audi-based gearboxes are too long to slide back enough to completely dis-engage coupler. If you get desperate enough, you can cut or squash the spare tire well to make room, but that's a last resort.
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Rich H
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
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Location: Preston, Lancs, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:55 am Post subject: |
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My bad, haynes manual says it will move back... That inch might be enough though.
However I was under the impression the 4 spd was significantly shorter than the 5 speed, the casing at the end of the 5 contains the 5th gear the rest is internal to the box... There is around an inch behind my 5 speed and about 3" of 5th gear case?
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1994 Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress...
1980 Porsche 924 S2 DITC Turbo - Original spec
1978 Homo-Sapiens - Tired spec
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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Location: Spring Lake MI
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:05 am Post subject: |
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Again, in my experience, the Haynes is dead wrong. I attempted following the Haynes procedure and fought with it for over a week. Trust me. You MUST get the coupler removed in order to drop the gearbox. Trying to slide the trans back caused all kinds of other issues, even when I dropped the suspension. It's just not worth it. Get the coupler off, spend your energy focusing on that, because you have to get it off anyway. No point in compounding the problem by trying to slide the trans back with the coupler still attached.
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agfisher
Joined: 09 May 2007
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Location: West Hartford, CT
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:09 am Post subject: |
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So my plan of attack is going to be:
1) I'm going to try to mark the section of the bolt shaft that is still in the pinch joint. I want to make sure that when the bolt spins, its spining the whole thing and not just the head. I'm pretty sure that the bolt is one piece, just want to verify.
2) I'm going to give the coupler a couple of whacks to try to loosen things and then try to drive the bolt out from the backside. If I sense any movemnt I will spin the shaft and try to back the bolt out by spining the head.
3) If that's not working try to get another tool up there to put back pressure on the bolt while I spin it.
4) If that doesn't work close the garage, go have a beer and think about how nice it would be to take a sledge to it.
Anything else any of you would try on this?
Adam
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agfisher
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 483
Location: West Hartford, CT
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:31 am Post subject: |
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Here are some shots of my dilemma. Sorry for the file sizes, I really wanted to make sure the resolution was there.
Photo 1 - Here is a shot of the spacing between the end of the tranny and the tirewell.
Photo 2 - Here's the size of the access hole. It's about 2 to 2 1/2 inches in diameter.
And here's the problem bolt on the coupler. You can see how much of the bolt backed out before it got stuck and started spinning.
Adam
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15550
Location: Spring Lake MI
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Have you attempted to move the coupler back and forth (front to back)? With the bolt that far out already, I'm wondering if the notch in the splines is too far forward or back, which would cause interference with the bolt and make it more difficult to remove. Is the trans bell housing still flush with the torque tube bell housing? If not, if there is a gap, such that the trans has been pulled rear-ward, then it is highly likely that the notch in the splines on the driveshaft are no longer lined up correctly in order for the bolt to be removed. This is why I said to remove the coupler FIRST before doing ANY thing else.
I've never worked on the 4-speed, but are you absolutely certain there are no other access covers on either the trans or torque tube bell housings? On the 5-speed gearboxes, there is a much larger access hole...
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agfisher
Joined: 09 May 2007
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Location: West Hartford, CT
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ideola wrote: | Have you attempted to move the coupler back and forth (front to back)? With the bolt that far out already, I'm wondering if the notch in the splines is too far forward or back, which would cause interference with the bolt and make it more difficult to remove. Is the trans bell housing still flush with the torque tube bell housing? If not, if there is a gap, such that the trans has been pulled rear-ward, then it is highly likely that the notch in the splines on the driveshaft are no longer lined up correctly in order for the bolt to be removed. This is why I said to remove the coupler FIRST before doing ANY thing else.
I've never worked on the 4-speed, but are you absolutely certain there are no other access covers on either the trans or torque tube bell housings? On the 5-speed gearboxes, there is a much larger access hole... |
I did try to move the coupler back and forth using a screw driver and got no where. The thing wouldn't budge at all. I've been following the directions in the 924 Service Manual and the forums and I have not begun to separate the tranny from the bell housing at all. They are still bolted together tight (With pretty rusty bolts, BTW) As far as I know this is as the factory installed it. My family has owned this car since new and I went through the records and found no work that would require the tranny to be removed previously.
I ran my hands along both sides of the transmission and even peered inside and I saw no other access ports anywhere in it.
I sprayed the whole thing down again last night with some PB Blaster the hopefully loosen things up a bit some more.
Adam
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Rich H
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
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Location: Preston, Lancs, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:17 am Post subject: |
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Good pics.
I stand corrected then god knows what is in that case on the back of the tranny.... Also that is a tiny hole to work in! The Later cars have a huge hole making life a bit easier....
Odd that the bolt came out that far, can you wind it back in? Ad dan says I bet it's moe a bit and jammed the bolt threads where it waists in a bit before the threads. See if you can wind it back in.
Other options, if you can get to it and the bolt moves freely wind it out as far as you can, chop it off with a dremel in the center slot then pull the head out. Then put a small drill in the hole and drill the bolt, it'll hopefully grab and wind the bolt back in a bit hopefully enough to free the connector. If it doesn't then just drill the fecker out with full sized bit using the outer hole as a guide and put a new bolt right through with a nut on the end.
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1980 Porsche 924 S2 DITC Turbo - Original spec
1978 Homo-Sapiens - Tired spec
1953 Landrover S1 - Pensioner Spec |
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agfisher
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 483
Location: West Hartford, CT
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| ideola wrote: | | I agree with Rich's earlier comment. If the bolt is free turning but not backing out, its threads are probably stripped. I would try gently tapping or wiggling the coupler back and forth while simultaneously tapping the bolt out from the back side. |
Bingo! Took a punch and gave it a couple of good taps and out it came. Haven't retrieved the bolt yet so I'm unsure if it is stripped or not.
My problem now is I can't not budge the coupler a bit. It's like the bolts are still in there. I've tried prying and everything. Is the coupler itself keyed to the drive shafts at all. So if both bolts are removed, would it spin around the shaft freely??
Adam
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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Location: Spring Lake MI
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:45 am Post subject: |
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The input shaft and the driveshaft are both splined, as is the coupler. The coupler must move back onto the input shaft for removal of the trans. Do NOT try to move it forward onto the driveshaft because there's not enough room that way and it won't completely come off of the input shaft. It has to go back. Time to start hitting it with some penetrant, and you may want to read this thread about some better alternatives to off-the-shelf stuff.
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Rich H
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
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Location: Preston, Lancs, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:26 am Post subject: |
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I use the jack handle and beat seven bells out of it 
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1980 Porsche 924 S2 DITC Turbo - Original spec
1978 Homo-Sapiens - Tired spec
1953 Landrover S1 - Pensioner Spec |
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Doodle
Joined: 25 Nov 2002
Posts: 225
Location: Comox Valley, B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: |
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Good photo's. The wire that runs along the top to the tranny is for your backup light switch. In photo number 1 there are 3 bolts holding the aluminum cover and the muffler hanger. Remove the 3 bolts the aluminum cover and muffler hanger. Support the trans., preferably with a trans jack and chains. Once the penetrating oil has had some time to work use a large screw driver/tire iron inserted through the bell housing access hole to gently pry the slit in both ends of the coupling open. With the light switch housing and switch itself removed you'll have lots of room to back the trans and lower at the same time until the trans has cleared the rear bell housing.
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Doodle
Pre 77.5 Mars Red |
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15550
Location: Spring Lake MI
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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It is a risky proposition to attempt removing the trans before the coupler has been slid back off of the driveshaft. If you put any weight on the junction, it will only make it more difficult to slide the coupler. Let the penetrant do its job, and use a long, large flat-bladed screwdriver to prize it back onto the input shaft.
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