924Board.org

[Mr_Bob]

EFI can be bugged and programmed never to deliver the correct fuel ratio because of government regulations and what ever else. The blind faith in EFI is something I do not have. Like when people say they can only get 140hp from that motor. I know it is capable of more than that. Plus if I was ever running from the cops and they wanted to zap the car with an electronic pulse to stop the car. It wont stop a mechanical carbed car. Besides the ridiculas. EFI is more costly, more fragile, more restricted, and more of a pain to use and maintain. Though your performance benifits over carbs is less than 10%. Especially if you arent going to get extreme with forced induction.

[J1NX3D]

[fiat22turbo]

Wow, you are so wrong its not even funny.

First, factory EFI since 1995-up does not leave any HP on the table, they simply can't due to the restrictive emissions requirements the motors have to be as efficient as possible. This is why the rice-driving morons are excited to see 5hp from an exhaust or air filter change. This is about at the limit for the measurement of a chassis dyno and you can see that much difference in what viscosity of oil you run.

Second, the CIS injection used on these cars is so simple as its essentially mechnical fuel injection.

Third, using Megasquirt or an equivalent DIY aftermarket EFI system to replace the CIS will give YOU complete control over the fuel and ignition systems so YOU or your TUNER can set this to be whatever YOU want. just like a carburetor. Heck buy Holley's Pro-Jection system and you can still tune the car with a screwdriver!

Fourth, the motors are severely limited not necessarily by the induction system but by the piss poor cylinder head design. How do you know they are capable of more than 140 street legal hp? Adding a turbo or supercharger can bring the power up to 2-220hp if you're careful and use EFI to tune the car to be on the ragged edge fter spending a lot of time and money developing a cooling system to remove heat the engine. If you spend tons of money basically recreating each port by hand then you can see quite a power difference, but the power will likely to be so peaky as to essentially be impossible to drive at anything less than full throttle.

Fourth, why the F would you be running from the COPS? If you're doing something illegal, and you're running from the cops you should be stopped since you endanger other people's lives when you pull stupid stunts like that. Not too mention that unless you're running a points triggered ignition system you'll lose the charge and ignition circuit if they did hit you with such a device (that isn't in production and is only in test at this point, BTW)

Finally, these cars have been around long enough to have had nearly everything possible tried on them to make power both from professional, factory, big money backed teams with their own dyno cells to shade-tree types who are using educated guesses to make changes that sometimes might make a positive difference. Not much has helped without a lot of work on what? That's right the cylinder head. Fix that and you'll see some gains, but that's neither cheap or easy.

My suggestion to you is to do the research on this stuff before you post again. Before and after I bought my 924 Carrera Replica I did a lot of research on the car and basically it boiled down to a great handling car searching for a decent motor. Add a turbo or supercharger and it gets closer to perfect. Drop in a decently liteweight V-8 or a true Porsche motor and its just about right.

From the general tone of your posts and the rather obvious lack of knowledge of cars in general I'd have to say that you'll have nothing but aggravation ahead of you when working on cars.

[Mr_Bob]

I didnt say it is not a gain. I said it was not much of a gain. And all of the negatives out way that small gain.

What a manufacture claims to do always seems to be excieded by someone in their little garage. I wont get into car manufactures hatered of the people. It is sort of like those ice makers in refrigerators that make D shaped ice that always gets sideways in the glass and causes you to spill your drink down your face by the corners of your mouth. Restricted 2L motors in sports cars . I think it has something to do with inflation and global warming and the west trying to inslave the world.

I have a 1L motorcycle. Though it revs higher, it can produce over 200hp with a few modifications. Mine is that modified, and is probalby around 160hp or more.

Though, not a big fan of Nascar. Are you aware they still use carburation in their cars?

[Mr_Bob]

fiat22turbo, idunno whats worse. A ricer with thinks 200hp is alot of power. Or someone who hates ricers and thinks they know it all. You obviously have no clue about computers or programming, and thats what I am getting at. And who said street leagal? I dont live in the blue state of California. If the car runs here, its leagal.

Fiat22turbo, you just need to listen and learn. Your ego is making you dumber by the minute.

[fiat22turbo]

Huh, so prove me wrong then.

I've spent quite a bit of time researching electronic fuel injection systems, programming and electronics as well. Those are simply things I've grown up around, that and road racing.

I didn't say 200hp is a lot of HP. I just said that at abnout 200hp the cars start to become a lot more fun to drive and without a bunch of work its hard to get much more than that out of the motor.

AS to the ricer comment I'll merely point out, what bolt-on mod for a modern non-turbo 4-cylinder motor adds more than 5hp? I can bet you'll not find many if any at all. Even with changes to the programming of the EFI system there's simply not much that can be done without compromising the motors power curve towards one region or another.

You also never said anything about where you're from or that it wasn't going to be street legal. I assumed (apparently incorrectly) that when you were talking about running from the cops that you were going to use your car on the street. I stand corrected. In which case you can get pretty wild with the modifications if you'd like since in some cases you'll lose what little bottom end torque you had to begin with.

As to NASCAR I'm well aware that they use carburation in their motors. That's not something they want to do, its something they have to do thanks to the doofus rules put in place by the sanctioning body. Also those carburetors only resemble carburetors in appearance only, they actually run them like mechanical fuel injection with at least 50psi of fuel pressure and they are built to provide maximum HP at wide open throttle. Any resemblance between that and the Generic Holley double pumper you buy from Summit Racing is coincidental at best.

So, go do what you want, I've expressed my opinion (and that's all it ever was, you're the one getting worked up over some opinions based on some facts that I've found over the years I've been on the planet) I'd like you to prove me wrong. I'd like to know that when you add sidedrafts that you'll make 300+hp out of a SOHC 2.0L motor. If you do,then by all means post the dyno plot and I'll admit that I was wrong in front of everyone here.

Let us know how you go.
Stefan

[J1NX3D]

[Mr_Bob]

[Mr_Bob]

I thought I would go ahead and add a little bit of info. The 928 uses a AFM. The AFM can/will restrict the cfm of your intake. Due to the set up of the mostly mechanical injection, there is no way around it. On a digital FI car, a Mass Air Flow Sensor can be altered because all it reads is the heat created by passing air. All intake sensors besides a MAP (manifold air pressure) can and will impede air flow of the intake.

[Khal]

Your kind ain't welcome here, boy...

Many, many wannabe's have claimed their gonna get stupid horsepower out of these cars. We tend to come over all bored and annoyed when another newbie shows up claiming they know it all.

Go away. Do it. Then come back and gloat...
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'80 924 Turbo

[Min]

Someone here has watched the fast and the furious a few to many times.

Min
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Custom means it didn't come from a box.
1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting.

[Chrenan]

This has been done to death, the 924 is not a new car, people have been playing with it for years. The choking point in the normally aspirated setup is in the head, plain and simple. In North America the compression was lower, another power sapping problem. Here's the link to my engine build:

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=19839

Follow the pictures and play along with your wrenches and you will see gains, the list of modifications is in my signature below. With this setup I have kept the CIS, it is perfectly able to provide the correct amount of fuel to the engine. This is all work I have done, not imagined. When you're finished building your engine, you can rant about how great it is, until then you just sound like a loud mouth. Slapping carbs on the 924 is not a performance enhancement, it has to be done in combination with addressing the internals of the engine.
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1987 951 - M193 Version for Japan

[Khal]

Aw, Chrenan! Don't tell him all the secrets... the fun is in the search!

(Oh, that's right, we haven't had Peter_in_AU telling him to use the search yet... )
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'80 924 Turbo

[Chrenan]

Khal, I might as well save the guy some time, he'll need all the time he can find to get 300 hp out of a 924. He's going to need to bore his block, stroker his crank, some type of forced induction with charge cooling, lightened valve train, aggressive cam profile, head work to increase flow, EFI, throttle body, larger injectors, likely an oil cooler along with improved oiling. 140 to 160 hp is the max sane hp you can get out of a normally aspirated 924 with run of the mill everyday engine enhancements that are streetable. 300 hp is not impossible, nothing is, but it will be very difficult.
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1987 951 - M193 Version for Japan

[Mr_Bob]

Ah, great... I got a yankee and a Canadian trying to talk cars.
[in my best yankee talk]I was just informing you guys how FI's intakes are impeded. Dont cha' know. Oh' gees, dont be such pricks.[/yankee talk]



Looks like you did good work there on that motor. But not alot benifit is going to come from those bored intake ports with that stock throttle body and intake. When comparing to the valve size, looks like the exhaust port is a little restricted. Intake, not so much. From what I can see from the pics.