 |
924Board.org
Discussion Forum of 924.org
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
sequential
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 500
Location: BANNED
|
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:53 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Hello Guy's ,
By my experience , Hp for hp a 911 will beat any front engine porsche on the track , it makes for a better track car , with better dynamics than any 924/951/928 / 968 etc, etc. it is also way more reliable at doing it too.
THe water cooled cars are just cheaper to get into but cost as much to go as fast with little or no resale value . Hence the superbug is still king !
_________________
928 gts prototype
baby blue engine block
steam in 1,2,3,4 sometimes
cold star issues while on stands
112 whp with new 4 valve head and MIS 2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Belgian924t
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 104
Location: Belgium
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hello sequential,
what you say is half true... A poor driven 911 will be beaten by a transaxle anytime... On a track it is not only the speed on the straights that matters, but also how to tackle the curves.
And for that a 911 is a much difficult car to handle.
_________________
'79 931 with Carrera GT look
'86 944 turbo (sold)
'88 944 turbo S (sold)
'85 911 Carrera 3,2 (to be restored)
'80 911 SC "SOLD"
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2224272 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Paul
Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 9491
Location: Southeast Wisconsin
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
When a 911 is chasing me in a corner with nice run offs, I just wait until we are both understeering and lift my throttle....
_________________
White 87 924S "Ghost"
Silver 98 986 3.6l 320 HP "Frank N Stein"
White 01 986 "Christine"
Polar Silver 02 996TT. "Turbo"
Owned and repaired 924s since 1977
Porsche: It's not driving, it's therapy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Khal
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 4872
Location: Sunny and lovely interior BC, Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Paul wrote: | | ...I just wait until we are both understeering and lift my throttle.... |
 Y'know I did exactly that on the weekend?!
OK, I wasn't being chased by a 911. But I realised anew just how neutral these cars are... I was having a red-hot go across the top of Mt. Nebo/Mt. Glorious on Friday last (remember that one, Paul?). I was seriously stuffing it into corners, tyres squealing, all that jazz. Anyways, on some of the really tight, slow corners, when she started to understeer, all I had to do was progressively back off the throttle 'til the nose came back on line... then boot it again! Damn, it was fun!
I was being chased by a bike at the start of the run. I surprised the Hell out of him by absolutley flying through the first run of corners I actually lost sight of him in the rearview for a sec! Then he got on it 
Obviously, there's no way to catch a bike when it's going straight. I could just hang with him in the corners but every time the road straightened i.e. between every set of corners, he'd put some more distance between us. Pretty soon, he was gone...
_________________
'80 924 Turbo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Paul
Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 9491
Location: Southeast Wisconsin
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sounds like a great time, those roads were made for toofahs!
To have even more fun in a corner, step on the gas and get the rear end loose, then steer the other way while controling the car's direction with the throttle....four wheel drifting....
Do this in a wet parking lot until you get the hang of it...
My wife hates me when I do this on mountain roads with no guard rails. She threatened to walk when we were climbing a mountain in Montana with a lot of switch backs.
_________________
White 87 924S "Ghost"
Silver 98 986 3.6l 320 HP "Frank N Stein"
White 01 986 "Christine"
Polar Silver 02 996TT. "Turbo"
Owned and repaired 924s since 1977
Porsche: It's not driving, it's therapy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Khal
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 4872
Location: Sunny and lovely interior BC, Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Paul wrote: | | Sounds like a great time, those roads were made for toofahs! |
Yeah, I was grinning like a loon for days! 
Spent Sunday getting my mate's old Falcon running again (dead alternator, crapped-out fan belt, flat tyre). We were going to go up there again yesterday but circumstances didn't allow...
| Paul wrote: | To have even more fun in a corner, step on the gas and get the rear end loose, then steer the other way while controling the car's direction with the throttle....four wheel drifting....
Do this in a wet parking lot until you get the hang of it... |
Yeah, I should practice that!
| Paul wrote: | | My wife hates me when I do this on mountain roads with no guard rails. She threatened to walk when we were climbing a mountain in Montana with a lot of switch backs. |
My ex-girlfriend actually threw-up the first time I took her up there in my car... no, I'm not kidding! We had to stop on the side of the road while she heaved!
_________________
'80 924 Turbo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sequential
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 500
Location: BANNED
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Belgian924t wrote: | Hello sequential,
what you say is half true... A poor driven 911 will be beaten by a transaxle anytime... On a track it is not only the speed on the straights that matters, but also how to tackle the curves.
And for that a 911 is a much difficult car to handle.
|
hello, Belgian
A poorly driven anything would get beaten on any track , i have never seen HP for HP, a front engine porsche, beat a rear engine porsche,
unless khal was driving the 911
The 911 is not faster on the straights it is faster everywhere.
We have done 944's to 500 bhp and they run slower lap times than 993 /996 with less HP. as a matter of fact the fstest 944t (500+)at Sebring (hp course) is 3 seconds a lap slower than a 997 cup car with more weight. i'm of course talking about prepared cars with competent drivers.
_________________
928 gts prototype
baby blue engine block
steam in 1,2,3,4 sometimes
cold star issues while on stands
112 whp with new 4 valve head and MIS 2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WhoDak
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 492
Location: Akron, OH
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Edit, double post 
_________________
Mike
'82 924 N/A
'91 Toyota Pickup SR5 4x4 Xtra cab
Last edited by WhoDak on Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WhoDak
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 492
Location: Akron, OH
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Paul wrote: | | Do this in a wet parking lot until you get the hang of it... |
I've done this in a wet parking lot, only I was breaking the rear loose by being in first gear and reving in a turn, then lifting hard off the throttle(ala 911 ) and the weight transfer loosened my traction and got me going. It's really amazing how you can just let it sit there for as long(to a certain extent of course) or as short as you want. I was very impressed with the 924's handling in skids after that.
_________________
Mike
'82 924 N/A
'91 Toyota Pickup SR5 4x4 Xtra cab |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Belgian924t
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 104
Location: Belgium
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sequential wrote: |
hello, Belgian
A poorly driven anything would get beaten on any track , i have never seen HP for HP, a front engine porsche, beat a rear engine porsche,
unless khal was driving the 911
The 911 is not faster on the straights it is faster everywhere.
We have done 944's to 500 bhp and they run slower lap times than 993 /996 with less HP. as a matter of fact the fstest 944t (500+)at Sebring (hp course) is 3 seconds a lap slower than a 997 cup car with more weight. i'm of course talking about prepared cars with competent drivers. |
Hello sequential,
I think we are losing something here. I am just comparing cars of the same age and no real race prepared cars. If you start talking about the 993, 996 or 997 then that is something else.
Then I fully agree with you. But the nimble 931 compared to a 911 SC of the same age: the SC will have to be pushed very very hard.
Greetz
_________________
'79 931 with Carrera GT look
'86 944 turbo (sold)
'88 944 turbo S (sold)
'85 911 Carrera 3,2 (to be restored)
'80 911 SC "SOLD"
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2224272 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Khal
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 4872
Location: Sunny and lovely interior BC, Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sequential wrote: | i have never seen HP for HP, a front engine porsche, beat a rear engine porsche,
unless khal was driving the 911 |
| Belgian924t wrote: | | Then I fully agree with you. |
What is this, International rag-on-Khal Day?!
_________________
'80 924 Turbo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sequential
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 500
Location: BANNED
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Belgian924t wrote: | | sequential wrote: |
hello, Belgian
A poorly driven anything would get beaten on any track , i have never seen HP for HP, a front engine porsche, beat a rear engine porsche,
unless khal was driving the 911
The 911 is not faster on the straights it is faster everywhere.
We have done 944's to 500 bhp and they run slower lap times than 993 /996 with less HP. as a matter of fact the fstest 944t (500+)at Sebring (hp course) is 3 seconds a lap slower than a 997 cup car with more weight. i'm of course talking about prepared cars with competent drivers. |
Hello sequential,
I think we are losing something here. I am just comparing cars of the same age and no real race prepared cars. If you start talking about the 993, 996 or 997 then that is something else.
Then I fully agree with you. But the nimble 931 compared to a 911 SC of the same age: the SC will have to be pushed very very hard.
Greetz |
Hello Belgian ,
I was not talking 931 vs 911 sc, that is a comparision , i would be able to tell you more about in a couple of months . At which time i will be running my 931 , but 911SC's are rare in GT classes , as here in the states they actually run in a highier class than the 931 , but i do know that a 944T with 500 bhp is 1 sec faster than a 914 /2.8 with 320 bhp. I was really comaping 944 s2/ 968 etc which is of the same year as 964, 993 type cars and i have driven these cars at different power levels . the 968/944 cars are more forgiving , but the chassis is not as dynamic , as the 911 , so in the hands of a less skilled driver they are safer , but with a skilled driver the 911 is better , has better race parts available for it and is more reliable . Now my biggest competition here for my 931 is 914/6 'sand 911TT with destroked motors of 2.1 L. So you will see 993 TT with 2.1 displacement racing 931 in GT.
_________________
928 gts prototype
baby blue engine block
steam in 1,2,3,4 sometimes
cold star issues while on stands
112 whp with new 4 valve head and MIS 2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
madhatter
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Clementon, New Jersey
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
That's interesting, but I think the comparison between stock 931/944 type cars and 911 type cars of the same era is more fair and will favor the front engine car with even very good drivers. It's pure physics really. I remember Road and Track did a comparison between the 944 turbo S and a 930, with the 930 having more hp and torque, and had run them at the track to test their lap times. Every driver recorded faster times in the 944 turbo even though it was at a hp disadvantage to the 930. When they measured the speeds throughout the track, the 944 simply blew through the corners faster than the 930 could, but the 930 would make up most of the lost time down the long straights. You just can't enter a corner in an older 911 as fast as a 944 type car without spinning it into the grass. Now the newer 911's chassis are so refined and tweaked now in their suspensions that it is a very good handler on the track, and without the parasitic loss of that long driveshaft and transmission setup on the 944 cars, hp for hp it could be a better car for racing. The older 911's are just not in the same handling league as the newer, more refined 911 cars are. I think even my girlfriend would have a difficult time spinning a new 911!
Steve |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
morghen
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 9095
Location: Romania
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| madhatter wrote: | That's interesting, but I think the comparison between stock 931/944 type cars and 911 type cars of the same era is more fair and will favor..... I think even my girlfriend would have a difficult time spinning a new 911! AND ALL THAT...
Steve |
True ! True !
_________________
Supercharger and EFI kits
https://www.the924.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sequential
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 500
Location: BANNED
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| madhatter wrote: | That's interesting, but I think the comparison between stock 931/944 type cars and 911 type cars of the same era is more fair and will favor the front engine car with even very good drivers. It's pure physics really. I remember Road and Track did a comparison between the 944 turbo S and a 930, with the 930 having more hp and torque, and had run them at the track to test their lap times. Every driver recorded faster times in the 944 turbo even though it was at a hp disadvantage to the 930. When they measured the speeds throughout the track, the 944 simply blew through the corners faster than the 930 could, but the 930 would make up most of the lost time down the long straights. You just can't enter a corner in an older 911 as fast as a 944 type car without spinning it into the grass. Now the newer 911's chassis are so refined and tweaked now in their suspensions that it is a very good handler on the track, and without the parasitic loss of that long driveshaft and transmission setup on the 944 cars, hp for hp it could be a better car for racing. The older 911's are just not in the same handling league as the newer, more refined 911 cars are. I think even my girlfriend would have a difficult time spinning a new 911!
Steve |
bad comparsion , a 911 carrera runs faster lap times than a 930 of the same vintage . also the laps times of the road and track comparsion is more indicative of the track type suiting the 944 t more than the 930. the 930 is not a good track car in stock config , hence you will see more carrera's than 930 at the track in prepared or stock. Now at the top of the prepared spectrum ( full race ) there is no comparsions the rear engines car has better traction and a more dynamic chassis , i'm not reading or taking this from magazines , we walk the walk.
A 500 bhp 944 has no traction until you get to the top of 3 rd gear and will put a wheel out at 100 mph ,
a 911 at 500 bhp just goes in any gear , the 944 trans and cv will not last most endurance races at this power level , the 911 will , the 944 is white knuckle the 911 is smooth and controlled , better seating position , better dynamics, this is the reason why no competent racer would choose a 944 over a 911 the driving dynamics is so much better and i love the 924 /951 cars , but they are not in the same league as the superbeetle , atomic cockroach .
The main reason why the early cars and older 911 on the hold in stock form are so tail happy is because the chassis and the suspensions moves around too much , so you are getting toe changes under squat and lift causing the car to want to rear steer, has nothing to do with the engine hanging out the back. in the newer cars the engine position has not changed just the chassis and the 996 gt3rs is the best of the breed and has left all in the dust.
I throughly enjoy beating the 911's on the track when ever we run a 931 /951 , but this is due to a big power advantage , where you drive a 951 /931 you wear the 911 , it is so much more alive and dynamic.
I have never heard any racer ( competent ) get out of a 911 and get into a 944 and say wow this is better , never , even an 968 which is light years ahead dynamically from a 951/931 , it is just not the same and quite possible the reason why that enigma of auto engineering has survived 42 yrs of motoring . 
_________________
928 gts prototype
baby blue engine block
steam in 1,2,3,4 sometimes
cold star issues while on stands
112 whp with new 4 valve head and MIS 2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
924 FAQ (Technical)
