924Board.org

[Physcho]

well since i just filled up at $1.38 a litre ($5.24 a gallon) this is something i was just pondering.

i bought my 924 with an eye to coverting it to electric power some time in the future, something along the lines of this conversion http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/388.html

whilst you don't get the unlimited range offered with a petrol burning car, it is considerably cheaper per mile after the conversion cost.

I used to drive a VW superbeetle, and looked very seriously at converting it to run pure ethanol. the simple engine design made it quite easy, not much more than a timing adjustment. the proverbial spanner in the works is the cost of ethanol.

to make ethanol from can sugar costs around 2$ a litre australian (basically 2kg of sugar to make one litre of ethanol) running_on_alcohol had an interesting article about fermenting molassas to make ethanol and the cost per gallon of making it.

even with the fermentable material there is the time cost involved in distillation and monetary cost in making a still. in the end distilling 40L of alcohol or so a week seemed like too large a chore for me.

it seemed making a car run on ethanol was the easy part, getting the ethanol was the hard part.

but if you are just interested in the feasibility go the the wreckers and get all the parts in your fuel system that would be in contact with the alcohol, fuel lines, float etc and soak them in ethanol for a few weeks or more, then simply look for cracks, corrosion and other problems. This should give you a guide as to what will work and what won't.
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People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who do.

[PORSCHEV]

I am lucky enough to own an older diesel Jetta and now run a mix of 20% diesel and 80% filtered vegetable oil I get for free at many restaurants. In the winter I wil only be able to run a 50/50 mix with a heated fuel filter....so the guy in th engine swap section talking about the Audi diesel 924....good idea.
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1976 924
5 lug conversion, 17'C2 wheels,custom body work,327 vette engine.

1978-#53 "D" track racer.

[HappyPuppy]

Well, let me answer a few questions first.

In both Nashville,TN and my hometown of Columbia, SC, there are gas stations that have E85. E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. It's about $0.30 cheaper per gallon than the premium gas I usually buy, and as demand increases, I expect it to drop in price.

I want to convert my '81 924 Turbo to E85, while retaining as much of the original equipment as possible, since I'm trying to keep it somewhat original--I have another two 924s that I plan on playing around with.

Since I'm at Nashville Auto-Diesel College right now, I have access to all kinds offun toys to help me, like engine analyzers and 4-gas analyzers, not to mention teachers that have been working on cars long before I was born.

Someone mentioned switching to carbs--that seems like the wong anser to me. Does anyone know how far the Idle mix adjustment screw can adjust the fuel/air mix? I don't know for sure, but getting the 18:1 ratio that way doesn't seem impossible.

If I didn't have to use it as a daily driver, I would just toss in the E85 and see what happens--however, since it is, I have to use a little more caution. Home brewing ethanol, while it could be fun, is still too impractical, especially for a student in an apartment.

I do plan on making an EV racer out of one of my 924s, just not this one. I even have an idea on how to do it without chemical batteries, since that is both the reason for the weight penalty and the reason conventional EVs can't accelerate very quickly.

I just need to know two simple things: what's going to melt, disentegrate, or corrode when I switch to E85, and has anyone done this to a 924 or 931 WITHOUT switching to carbs.

BTW, if you think I'm crazy now, just wait about 4 months when I have an E85-powered twin turbo Northstar V8 resting between the strut towers of my other 924 Turbo!

thanx guys
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My frequent desire to perform violent acts on select other drivers is not road rage; it is simply preemptory self-defense.

[ESC944]

I have always favored anything over gasoline.

Especially anything you can make yourself. Their are a lot of myths about alternate fuels.

One thing about all of them, alchy, propane, natural gas, is the way they rate them for BTU.

Its decieving, using a fuel to heat something or burn is different than pushing a piston.

Keep in mind a huge amount of the energy contained in gasoline is lost to heat. Ideally if you can get more of the energy focused in pushing the piston...

But I say we all need to go to some other kind of fuel now more than ever, regardless of which fuel it is.

I think we need some kind of consortium a group of us working to make fuel conversions for these cars.

Just imagine what we could do, I love alternate fuels, since most of them allow you to run boost in an NA engine a lot easier do to high octane rating, so we can make more power, lower emissions, get decent gas mileage and do it on the cheap.

So who is in?

I have obligations with my supercharger stuff, but I can promise that my 931 will be getting propane, but I could wait and do alchy first, figure out the setup, or help. I think it would be great if we could collectively come up with something that helps keep these cars going and then some.

I think we can get the Megaquirt guys to lend a hand and come up with a alchy fuel injection setup, I got my Delco setup to handle the basic propane stuff, so I imagine the MS would do just as good or better, same with the alchy instead of propane.

In any case, the idea would be a cheap conversion. I know I can convert a car to a carb based propane setup for about 400.00 us dollars, then add in the cost of boost and MSD ignition, of course doesnt have to be MSD, but with boost, I figure thats best.

But thats one option. Their are many. I think I can help with low cost boost solutions, we already have low cost clutch and rebuild options, we just need to sort out the fuel delivery and I know of a few different ignition options besides MSD.

Anyone agree?> We can help each other out

[skemcin]

anyone intersted in HCCI:
http://www.osti.gov/fcvt/deer2001/coleman.pdf

Resources:
http://www.me.berkeley.edu/cal/HCCI/
and
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/05/keep_an_eye_on_.html
and
http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=103060
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924.org (no time to complete)
9249206346 - 89k – new shifter bushings, belts, running well.
9249206347 - 8k – waiting its resurrection, no power at the fuel pump and fuse #7 blows w/power

[HappyPuppy]

skemcin, MegaSquirt does have a great EFI controller, and I plan on using it in the Northstar/924 project. The 931 project, however, I'm trying to see if I can convert to E85 by changing as few original components as possible. I believe the two biggest obstacles to this are: what parts are going to get damaged, and adjust the CIS system for the higher fuel/air mix.

HCCI seems interesting, but is not related to any of my current projects. If I can't get an answer from this board, I'm just going to wait until I have another running car as a backup, then just fill the 931 with E85, turn up the fuel/air mix, and see what breaks.

thanx
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My frequent desire to perform violent acts on select other drivers is not road rage; it is simply preemptory self-defense.

[kaffine]

What level of O2 is expected in the exhaust for E85? Will it be the same as gasoline or do they want diffrent levels? I'm just wondering if the O2 sensor is going to be helping maintain the correct mixture with E85 or if it will have to be disabled.
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80 924
80 931

The best desciption of an atom boils down to something unknown is doing we don't know what.
Sir Arthur Eddington

[skemcin]

[dwak]

Esc944, I'm definitely interested in cooperating with the ethanol theme and Porsches. A lot of the newer cars are set up to run on any variation of ethanol/gasoline. Other and older fuel injected models need a conversion chip but I am not aware of any suppliers of these chips but have been told they are out there. Ethanol is high oxygen, so the older cars are 'leaned out'. Robert Warren of 'running_on_alcohol.com' ran his cars in the '70's and '80's just fine doing nothing other than manually leaning them out.

Revenoors.com has home size stills for $1000US/each and corn has never been cheaper in North America, so ethanol is very do-able. Ethanol is clean burning and polution device compatable to the point that the devices are redundant. And we all know what fuel alcohol dragsters can do.

Canadians are a bunch of meally mouthed pseudo socialists who will wait for big brother to care of them but I expect much out of you independant minded Americans. Or is the spirit gone? Look what Big Brother did for you in New Orleans.

dwak
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2x924NA's for parts
931
924S

[Ozzie]

[HappyPuppy]

I know that technically, I might be violating a few emission laws--however, if I can tune the car to at least comply with normal gasoline emissions requirements or better via the gas analyzers, who's going to know? Or more importantly, care? I know ethanol burns cleaner, who that is the least of my worries.

BTW, if anyone near Nashville, TN has a cheap running motorcycle or 924 I can buy as a daily driver, I might be interested in buying it.

cya
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My frequent desire to perform violent acts on select other drivers is not road rage; it is simply preemptory self-defense.

[ozarknight]

I don't know if my Porsche can run on alcohol, but I can. I prefer Booker's Bourbon, a nice 126 proof whiskey put out by our friends at the Jim Beam Distillery in Clermont KY USA. Second choice would be Highland Park Scotch Whisky from our dear friends on the Orkney Islands of Scotland. Truly an incredible dram.

As for the '88 924S, I have to agree with Khal, gas in the US is a bargain. We've been spoiled for far too long and now it's time to pay the piper.

Ozarknight
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'88 924S Slate Gray Metallic

[ESC944]

Well yea propane or alchy going to see flux in prices, especially propane.

Idea is to buy in large amounts, more than a bbq tank and you start to see better prices. Better still if you have a large tank at the house
and set up your own refill station.

As for alchy no one would know less they checked the tank or something.

I like the 5k tax credit and wished I lived in states where they pay for the conversion.... oh yea that would be sweet, like Illinois.... up to 4k to do the conversion to propane.... or other alternate fuel. On top of federal credit on taxes each year... yep.

[gohim]

The problem with trying to run ANY CIS car on alcohol is moisture content and corrosion. CIS fuel systems do not like alcohol, the alloys in the systems corrode when water settles out.

A primary reason that gas costs much more in foreign countries, is teh fact that many countries tack a heavier load of TAXES onto each litre, quart or gallon that those those poor unfortunate drivers pump.

How do you think the these other countries pay for many of their social programs?

You guys from Canada, and Down Under, how much of each litre or gallon that you buy goes to taxes?

How is the Canadian Government funding universal heathcare for it's citizens, sales tax, gas tax, or both?

I read somewhere that in Germany, close to $2.40 on each gallon of gas is taxes that goes towards social programs, and the debt loading on the German Government for the costs of Reunification.

Here is CA, less than $.60 of each gallon goes to taxes, including sales tax.

[tj924]