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Khal
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 4872
Location: Sunny and lovely interior BC, Canada
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 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| Neil924 wrote: | | Since the formation/ parade lap isn't the start of the race, the Michelin shod teams broke a rule. |
Are you 100% sure that's the case?
| Neil924 wrote: | | The F1 rules clearly state that steps must be taken before a race to notify the officials that your car will not be in the race.If they planned to leave before the race started, then they should have filed the correct papers with officials. |
Yes, I noticed that rule, too. That seems to be the one that's gonna get'em in trouble, because they absolutely knew before the race started that they were gonna pull out. That one seems pretty clear-cut.
Others are not so clear-cut;
| Neil924 wrote: | | Failed to ensure that you had a supply of suitable tyres for the race. |
At first glance, that seems to be the case. But it can (and surely will) be argued that as far as they knew, they did have suitable tyres for the race. They only found out later, after a statement from the manufacturer themselves, that the tyres were faulty.
| Neil924 wrote: | | Wrongfully refused to allow your cars to start the race. |
Totally disagree with that one. They rightfully refused to let their cars start the race.
| Neil924 wrote: | | Wrongfully refused to allow your cars to race subject to a speed restriction at one corner, which was safe for such tyres as you had available. |
I think it can be reasonably argued that slowing some cars down in the banked turn would actually cause less safe racing conditions.
| Neil924 wrote: | | Combined with other teams to make a demonstration damaging to the image of Formula One by pulling into the pits immediately before the start of the race. |
Yeah, looks like they did that. Might hang for that one.
| Neil924 wrote: | | That you failed to notify the stewards of your intention not to race. |
Well, that's just a repeat of the first part ^.
| Neil924 wrote: | | It has nothing to do with Ferrari and everything to do with Formula One. |
Not so sure about that...
| Neil924 wrote: | | The Michelin teams are in **** no matter how you slice the pie. |
Oh, absolutely! But is it right that they're in the ****?
 My thoughts exactly...
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numbbers
Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 1910
Location: Highlands Ranch, Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Well, the teams that were running the Michelin tires did so voluntarily. They made the choice to run Michelins, so they have to take the responsibility for not having an adequate tire to run the race. That doesn't absolve Michelin of responsibility, it is just that their responsibility was to the teams they supplied. The teams have the responsibility to show up with adequate equipment to run the race. I suppose one solution would have been for all teams to run the Bridgestone tires in the race. Of course that would have violated their contracts with Michelin. But, in my opinion, Michelin violated the contracts, when they failed to supply a safe tire. They Michelin teams would have been at a disadvantage running an unfamiliar tire, but it would have been fair to everyone, because they failed to come prepared to race, not the Bridgestone teams.
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Khal
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 4872
Location: Sunny and lovely interior BC, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| numbbers wrote: | | Well, the teams that were running the Michelin tires did so voluntarily. They made the choice to run Michelins, so they have to take the responsibility for not having an adequate tire to run the race... The teams have the responsibility to show up with adequate equipment to run the race. |
But is that the case? Where is the rule that says "teams must ensure that they have a supply of suitable tyres for the race"?
I've seen a statement from the FIA that accuses them of not doing so. But the only actual, written rule that I've seen quoted is Article 131 (which is about notifying the stewards immediately when you know you're not going to race, for whatever reason). Seems clear enough that they broke that rule...
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Neil924
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 4225
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Khal wrote: | | Neil924 wrote: | | Since the formation/ parade lap isn't the start of the race, the Michelin shod teams broke a rule. |
Are you 100% sure that's the case?
| Neil924 wrote: | | The F1 rules clearly state that steps must be taken before a race to notify the officials that your car will not be in the race.If they planned to leave before the race started, then they should have filed the correct papers with officials. |
Yes, I noticed that rule, too. That seems to be the one that's gonna get'em in trouble, because they absolutely knew before the race started that they were gonna pull out. That one seems pretty clear-cut.
Others are not so clear-cut;
| Neil924 wrote: | | Failed to ensure that you had a supply of suitable tyres for the race. |
At first glance, that seems to be the case. But it can (and surely will) be argued that as far as they knew, they did have suitable tyres for the race. They only found out later, after a statement from the manufacturer themselves, that the tyres were faulty.
| Neil924 wrote: | | Wrongfully refused to allow your cars to start the race. |
Totally disagree with that one. They rightfully refused to let their cars start the race.
| Neil924 wrote: | | Wrongfully refused to allow your cars to race subject to a speed restriction at one corner, which was safe for such tyres as you had available. |
I think it can be reasonably argued that slowing some cars down in the banked turn would actually cause less safe racing conditions.
| Neil924 wrote: | | Combined with other teams to make a demonstration damaging to the image of Formula One by pulling into the pits immediately before the start of the race. |
Yeah, looks like they did that. Might hang for that one.
| Neil924 wrote: | | That you failed to notify the stewards of your intention not to race. |
Well, that's just a repeat of the first part ^.
| Neil924 wrote: | | It has nothing to do with Ferrari and everything to do with Formula One. |
Not so sure about that...
| Neil924 wrote: | | The Michelin teams are in **** no matter how you slice the pie. |
Oh, absolutely! But is it right that they're in the ****?
My thoughts exactly... |
Yes, I am 100% sure on that. |
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Neil924
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 4225
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Neil924 wrote:
Wrongfully refused to allow your cars to start the race.
Totally disagree with that one. They rightfully refused to let their cars start the race.
It doesn't matter, it's written in stone and the Michelin teams broke a dozen rules to get to this point which leads everyone to think they planned this... WHICH is the fault.
If a car is unsafe, then take the proper steps.
Just to cry about it in pit lane and not file the paper work is against the rules. |
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Neil924
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 4225
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| numbbers wrote: | | Well, the teams that were running the Michelin tires did so voluntarily. They made the choice to run Michelins, so they have to take the responsibility for not having an adequate tire to run the race. That doesn't absolve Michelin of responsibility, it is just that their responsibility was to the teams they supplied. The teams have the responsibility to show up with adequate equipment to run the race. I suppose one solution would have been for all teams to run the Bridgestone tires in the race. Of course that would have violated their contracts with Michelin. But, in my opinion, Michelin violated the contracts, when they failed to supply a safe tire. They Michelin teams would have been at a disadvantage running an unfamiliar tire, but it would have been fair to everyone, because they failed to come prepared to race, not the Bridgestone teams. |
Tires are a massive part of preformance on an F1 car, just swapping Bridgestones on could have been just as dangerous because EVERY turn would have been a crap shoot. |
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Neil924
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 4225
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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As for slowing down in a turn,
it's not like they are going to slam on the brakes and coast around at 25 kph.
The Bridgestone teams would have waited for them to move or would make their passes before the turn. <<< That was a victim tactic used by the Michelin teams, it wasn't a strong point at all.
If it was, then Jordan and Minardi wouldn't be able to race at any race because they are slower than all cars in EVERY turn. Weak, weak point.
Edit, spelling.
Last edited by Neil924 on Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Neil924
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 4225
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Khal wrote: | | numbbers wrote: | | Well, the teams that were running the Michelin tires did so voluntarily. They made the choice to run Michelins, so they have to take the responsibility for not having an adequate tire to run the race... The teams have the responsibility to show up with adequate equipment to run the race. |
But is that the case? Where is the rule that says "teams must ensure that they have a supply of suitable tyres for the race"?
I've seen a statement from the FIA that accuses them of not doing so. But the only actual, written rule that I've seen quoted is Article 131 (which is about notifying the stewards immediately when you know you're not going to race, for whatever reason). Seems clear enough that they broke that rule... |
I can asure you, teams must have equpiment available to run the races. It may not be circling the internet but those kinds of things need to be ironed out under the "Racers Federation Code" <<< or whatever it's called now.
Those things have to be in place to assure the FIA that you are ready to race so spomsors, fans, tracks etc... have enough of a soild base to putthier money in.
If this Indy thing happened once or twice a year by not having all of these steps in place, then no race series would ever get a foot hold anywhere. |
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SirBard
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| 924RACR wrote: | | BTDT, was a joke, though the support races were still good! Bumped into Dave Chamberlain + dad in parking lot on Friday... |
That would be me. Thought I'd use this as an opportunity to introduce myself. Been away with Uncle Sam for a while and just now getting back to life. I own an 81 931. I also started a 931 owners group (really just an e-mail directory) a number of years ago and then Darryl Snover graciously volunteered the host the whole thing on his server.
Anyway - hello.
BTW - got the username a number of years ago due to my propensity to wax poetic sometimes about Porsches.
Dave |
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Khal
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 4872
Location: Sunny and lovely interior BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Neil924 wrote: | | I can asure you, teams must have equpiment available to run the races. It may not be circling the internet but those kinds of things need to be ironed out under the "Racers Federation Code" <<< or whatever it's called now. |
Ah, you can assure me...
Where's the rule?
Bloody base rules are in French. Can't read it.
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Neil924
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| Khal wrote: | | Neil924 wrote: | | I can asure you, teams must have equpiment available to run the races. It may not be circling the internet but those kinds of things need to be ironed out under the "Racers Federation Code" <<< or whatever it's called now. |
Where's the rule?
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So if I don't show it to you, it doesn't exist?
Those "rules" would be set in place before a team would be allowed into F1.
If I have to sign contracts such as those, I am positive every team in F1 must sign many. |
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numbbers
Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 1910
Location: Highlands Ranch, Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Kahl, your point is?
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numbbers
Joined: 05 Nov 2002
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Location: Highlands Ranch, Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Anyway, there will be some penalties handed out, and there will be a US Grand Prix next year at Indy. And, people will come, because you know there will not be a repeat of this mess. In a couple of years, all will be forgotten.
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Neil924
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| numbbers wrote: | | Anyway, there will be some penalties handed out, and there will be a US Grand Prix next year at Indy. And, people will come, because you know there will not be a repeat of this mess. In a couple of years, all will be forgotten. |
F1 is a tricky business, things can come and go and be forgotten but a total failure like this will be remembered. All problems in F1 are remembered... forever. They have F1 decade and that goes back 10 years and they bring up EVERYTHING! Each time they go back to a track it is ALWAYS compared to last years race. And this being the foothold into the USA is MASSIVE! There will be memories of this forever and they will be held by everyone in and around F1. |
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Khal
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 4872
Location: Sunny and lovely interior BC, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Neil924 wrote: | | Khal wrote: | | Where's the rule? |
So if I don't show it to you, it doesn't exist? |
No, I didn't quite mean it like that... but you can't point to any specific rule, right?
| numbbers wrote: | | Kahl, your point is? |
I wasn't having a go at anyone. I just found it interesting that the only specific rule that was quoted -by the FIA themselves, that is -is the only rule that it seems quite clear the teams have broken.
When an engine blows, a team isn't accused of "failing to ensure they had a suitable engine for the race."
That may be a little specious. But y'know what I'm getting at.
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